David Nakhla 0:00

A special thanks to the OPC's Committee on Christian Education's Rolling Elder Podcast for their work in producing this episode and for allowing us to share it on the Reformed Deacon Podcast.

Jeff Roach 0:12

So many great opportunities at the outset in the training stage with new deacons coming on to either establish or either reaffirm that culture of connectedness between session and deacon.

David Nakhla 0:28

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reform Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm Stephen Tracy. Today we're going to be discussing how ruling elders can help and encourage deacons in the work of local congregations. I'm delighted to be joined by two brothers. I'm delighted to be joined first of all by ruling elder David Nachla. David is a ruling elder at Calvary OPC, Glenside, Pennsylvania, and he is the administrator of the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. And David, you have a host of other titles that go with that. But we're glad to have you on the podcast today.

David Nakhla 1:19

Thanks. Great to be here. Love this topic.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

We're also pleased today to be joined by Deacon Jeffrey Roach. Jeffrey is a deacon in Resurrection Presbyterian Church in Matthews, North Carolina. He's been a deacon there since 2006. Welcome, Jeffrey.

Jeff Roach 1:36

Well, thanks, Stephen, for having me. Looking forward to the discussion.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Thank you. I think it's going to be a great discussion, particularly because David is such an expert in podcasts. My job will be much easier today. So let's start with a simple question. At least I think it's a simple question. What do you think are the ingredients of a healthy diaconate, a healthy body of elders serving in a local congregation? What would you say are the key ingredients?

David Nakhla 2:02

Jeffrey, I'm looking to you with all your years of experience as a as a deacon.

Jeff Roach 2:08

Well, I was I was I was looking to my uh my elder here and saying, you first, right? I serve you, which is uh a good, maybe a good segue right into the discussion. Well, uh tell you a brief story to answer that question, just uh in San Diego for a work conference. I tried to get to a fellow OPC church uh down at Chula Vista too far. So I took an Uber to a John MacArthur-related church called Doxa Church. And uh the sermon was taken from John 4, talking about humble and uh faithful worshipers. And so when I uh am hearing this first question, Stephen, from you, you know, what's the ingredient of a healthy diaconate? Yeah, I think healthy diaconates are made up of of individual deacons who are fervent in worship, right? So think about being humble, be being full of the spirit, hence the story about where I worshipped uh just a couple days ago in San Diego. Uh humble and full of worship, full of the spirit. You know, you think about in the world of the diaconate, you don't have a lot of time sometimes to to formulate uh and and discuss. And I mean, the often these are in times of chaos. Um, so being full of the spirit is one of the uh prerequisites, um, having spirit, spirit-led folks. We can we can uh drill down into that uh a little more, but uh I'll leave it at that. Humble and full of the spirit.

David Nakhla 3:43

No, that's that's really good, Jeffrey. I think that uh a healthy diaconate is one that's in tune with the congregation and her needs. Deacons are there to serve primarily the congregation, and having them very connected to the individual congregants is super important, and then and that includes availability, uh perceived availability. Um, I think diaconates should be organized, um and relevant to our topic today, having a healthy relationship with the session is another ingredient of a healthy diaconate.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Very good. I I was wondering, thinking about that, I think it's essential to have good and godly spiritual man available organized. What kind of gifts do you think men who are going to be deacons uh should have? Of course, not any like as with ruling elders, not every deacon will have all the gifts, but what kinds of gifts uh serve congregations well?

Jeff Roach 4:47

Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to my mind uh sitting on a board of deacons for many, many years, I think uh a calmness of spirit. You know, thinking about we have these phrases about you know, quote unquote flying off the handle or short fuse or or um impulsive. I think all of those are um descriptions that shouldn't show up, um, you know, uh deliberate or measured, uh maybe even perhaps slow to speak. Um, so you know, being a good listener, process what's happening. And if you're full of the spirit, the the spirit just comes back out in your response. But um it's it's so it's so important to have a calmness of spirit, uh, particularly when uh deacons in so many times find themselves in perhaps uh emotionally charged situations. Thinking of people that might have lost a job, have financial concerns. Uh those those are emotionally charged situations. So having the calmness to bring in to those situations is uh certainly extremely important.

David Nakhla 6:07

And you know, dovetailing off of that, at the same time, you don't want somebody who's passive, I think of of those who are compassionate and empathetic. And so as Jeffrey was talking about, meeting with a family or an individual and and the nature of the difficulties they're facing, empathizing with those and responding in a compassionate way and an act in an active way, um uh calmly, uh, but but proactively. Um, I think are important aspects of it, of deacons.

Jeff Roach 6:48

So, David, you reminded me of a comment that uh Pastor Trice gave me when I was just coming on as an a newly ordained deacon, and by far the youngest of uh those on the diaconate. He gave me the challenge of having understated initiative. And I love that phrase, it's it stuck with me for a long time, obviously. Understated initiative. So perhaps maybe that gets to what both you and I were just talking about, uh a calmness and a deliberateness of spirit, but also certainly not passive. That was your your point, David. Maybe that understated initiative out there.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Meaning that there are points in time in which a deacon just needs to get it done.

David Nakhla 7:32

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah. What way do you think that elders then can help in uh the work of the church uh cultivating the work of deacons and helping them to flourish in their work? That's really what we're wanting to talk about today. The the Deacons podcast does a great job of setting out all kinds of subjects that deacons talk about. Um, but I'm interested in how do elders help deacons. Have you got some thoughts on that?

David Nakhla 8:05

I'm really thankful to have Jeffrey on because the the church he comes from has had a yeah long history of good, what I perceive to be a good relationship between the the elders and the deacons and and and a deliberateness to that. I've thought about this from the standpoint that before I served as an elder, I was I did serve uh locally as a deacon for five years. And it was very interesting to serve in one area of service and then in the other. And I I remember as a deacon sometimes being frustrated with the elders and perceiving that even in our other deacons, in that because of poor communication, there were decisions that were made by the the elders that it had to do with the diaconal realm. Maybe there were decisions made about the deacon's offering is going to go for such and such, or or you know, um, we as a church are gonna minister to this need that was very diaconal in nature. And those decisions, I don't think there was any intentional um harm meant, but sometimes those decisions were made without the deacon's involvement. And um, in a sense, I would say that uh without meaning to do it, I would say that the uh that the elders were undermining the oversight of the ministry of mercy that has been given to deacons. And so that's where you know, to come back to how can the uh elders help is to not only have trust and confidence in their deacons, but to maybe even communicate that and encourage the deacons in their oversight of the ministry of mercy and come and yeah, communicate effectively in in that realm.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Jeffrey, I was going to ask how does Resurrection Presbyterian Church uh function? Because uh David said here, you know, in his view, it's a model of good relationships and deliberateness. So, in terms of that kind of communication on the ground in your congregation, what does that look like?

Jeff Roach 10:11

It looks like uh a session and diaconate that are very close. Uh so you know, we in essence, we are the the hands and feet of the elders, right? We we are uh in essence leading that service for them per acts chapter six. And the closer the deacons and elders are, the better off. In essence, we we know what our you know our manager wants from us. We're and we're implementing uh thinking about healthy business relationships, right? What you don't want, for example, is you know, that typical startup firm, right? You got one guy who had the vision to start the firm, he's the CEO and he's everything. And as they grow, he has to learn how to delegate uh you know, this to you know, a chief of staff and this one to this managing director. And that is often very hard for the entrepreneur uh, you know, person who started this thing. He's not or she is not willing to let go of some um responsibilities. And in essence, it hurts the business. Uh, I think there's so much you can take to that. And you know, it hurts the church uh overall when a session doesn't understand um that you know that entrepreneur business starter problem, letting go of some responsibilities. And uh it's it's so important. I think uh back to your question, Stephen. You're saying how how do we do it at Resurrection Presbyterian? Uh, we as a diaconate um hear from the session regularly, as the session also hears from the diaconate regularly. Uh, there are members of session always in our deacon meetings. There are deacons at every stated session meeting. Uh, we don't stay for the whole thing, thankfully, because their meetings are a lot longer than our meetings. Uh, but but we are in each other's meetings. So we know the the desire of the session. What what is the will of session? Well, we we got a good handle on it because we're close to them. So we can implement uh that will in the practical ways um that that we're called to do.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

That's very helpful. I wonder how many deacons boards would view themselves in the terms that you used, where the hands and feet of the session. Like, do you think that's a common view?

Jeff Roach 12:55

I I think I'm very privileged as a individual, as a husband, as a father, as a deacon, to be privileged to be in a church that probably doesn't, that's probably not fair across uh certainly not across broader Presbyterianism, and uh very thankful. In fact, we just had a deacons meeting yesterday, and uh the pastor uh emailed emailed out a report from the session to the deacons to let us know um what's happening, some of the uh sessional uh shepherding questions that relate that ultimately to deacon decisions, and so it's very much a hand-in-glove relationship. There's a ministry of mercy, there's a ministry of word, and that happens simultaneously, and we got to make sure that we're talking to each other so we know what the right hand and the left hand are doing.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah, and then the principle, of course, that you that you're drawing from Acts chapter six, yeah, uh that elders really have to learn to delegate, and the importance of that is so that it doesn't take them away from their work. That's the ministry of the word and prayer. So I think that the emphasis on elders delegating is a very important one. Um do you think elders can sometimes be slow to delegate? I it was interesting listening to your your thoughts on that, but because they they're they view themselves as the entrepreneurs, I guess.

Jeff Roach 14:29

I don't know, that's the or yeah, the the the business owner, you know, the the guy who started it has that emotional. We often joke in the business world, right? The that you have such emotional um connectivity to all the divisions, and you're like, well, wait a second, the CEO can't be involved in every single decision. That's not helpful for the company.

David Nakhla 14:53

And if we're just again looking from the business model, his business is going to grow by hiring competent people that he trusts to serve in those various areas, and that's and the i mean the the the the calling of the deacon is high is a high calling, and the qualifications are high qualifications, and those qualifications are high because the work that they're being entrusted to is caring for the flock and that division of labor that occurred in Acts 6. If if you know it was so that both the spiritual and the physical care could both continue, and neither would be hindered by the other. So if there's a lack of trust, you need to think about how do we work through and figure out what what that is and how do we grow in those areas so that we can actually the session can let go of the ministry of mercy because it's in good hands and can continue to focus on the ministry of word and prayer, which is their primary calling.

unknown 16:00

Yeah.

Jeff Roach 16:01

So back to the delegation question, Stephen, you asked as a as a follow-up. So you think about Acts 6 and you think about the whole line was it's not right for us to neglect the ministry of the word in order to wait on tables, as it as it says in in that um translation. And so the implication was you we can't do everything because if we're doing one thing, there's a high probability that we're neglecting something else. Uh, so the session has to say uh we need to delegate to those who are going to be able to implement something that we just we just don't have capacity to do.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah. And having joint meetings is an excellent way for elders to help and encourage the uh the work of the deacons. And I'm I'm very glad to hear that's what happens in your congregation. That that's what we do here in Rockport as well. Usually, usually once a quarter, there's a joint meeting between all of the elders and all of the deacons. Um, and those are those are joyful meetings too. Uh is that the practice in Glenside? What would uh happen there?

David Nakhla 17:10

Yeah, so I would say that Calvary Glenside has really grown in the working of the deacons in session together uh in in more in recent years. So yeah, we do have the deacons join us, believe it's quarterly. They'll join us in praying for the flock. We discuss uh various needs and matters of of common concern and pray for the flock and they'll report. But where that's also happened is we have developed what we call care teams. And so we have a minister and an elder and a deacon all as a group assigned to the same shepherding group of families. And we will ideally, it's it's monthly that we have a call where we will that the where that minister and that elder and that deacon meet together. Oftentimes we do it by Zoom, and we will talk about the needs and pray through the needs of the families in that in that group. And again, a lot of times the spiritual and the physical go together. Uh, those who are going through difficult diaconal circumstances, there's a spiritual component to that. They need extra prayer, they need the ministry of the word uh in their lives as they go through that. And so, yeah, we've really been blessed to see that enhance our care uh for the flock as as we deliberately, and again, it's not just the it's we do it as a whole session, whole diaconate, but then individually, more specifically and refined onto one list, uh one shepherding list that's been helpful for us. And of course, we're you know, we're a larger congregation, now we're around 300, something like that. So we really have to divide the flock in in that way um under the various elders. But that's been a that's been a really a great area of growth for us in in having the the elders and the deacons cooperate in such a intentional, intentional and and regular way.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

I I heard about a a church that was organizing some you know smaller care groups like that, um, and they started calling them covenant care groups. Not that the church was called covenant church, but that they understood that there was something covenantal in the way that they were organizing themselves to care for the covenant group that they were part of. And I I really like that the title, Covenant Care Groups.

David Nakhla 19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

I think it it summarizes and it put it puts me in mind and reminds me of some of the approach of uh Van Damme's book on on the deacons, uh, and particularly that early chapter where he talks about restoring joy. A covenant care group like that is not just taking care of a spiritual aspect, but with that diaconal framework to it, it's making sure that the joy of the Lord and the restoration of joy is being given to a whole family in common nurture.

David Nakhla 20:15

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Um I think that when we think about the the ways that elders can help and encourage deacons, one of the ways, one of the primary places that starts is when deacons are being trained, when uh called to the work for and trained. What do you think a good training program for deacons looks like? And how do you think elders should be involved in that training program?

Jeff Roach 20:42

Mike, I should uh I can do a little shout out to uh an article I think was in the New Horizons in 2013. Uh Nathan Trice did a piece entitled A Holy Kind of Chaos. In fact, David, I think part of the focus was on the committee of on diaconal ministries, the CDM for our denomination, but there's so much overlap uh on what it actually means to get new deacons ready to understand what what is this holy kind of chaos uh that we're entering into. And um again, that was uh yeah, January 2013, just confirmed that here in New Horizons. And uh I think there's um there there are so many great opportunities at the outset in the training stage with new deacons coming on to either establish or either reaffirm that culture of connectedness between session and deacon board. Um and that certainly is is um helpful uh for the new folks coming on and then uh you know that renewed commitment from the session. But you know, a training certainly needs to. Include the fact that so many times physical problems, financial problems, um, vocational problems are often connected with some type of spiritual problem. You know, that generally speaking, right, there's other components in that that uh muddy muddy things up sometimes, uh, which actually, as a side note, a great example of why things, every things are just not black and white in this world of uh ministry of mercy and service. Uh, but hearing, hearing from session, training uh the deacons to understand uh how to how to have that relationship together, to be prayerful, uh, to be um discreet. I think that's something we haven't really mentioned yet on this on this edition of the podcast. They're uh just a good reminders for uh the officers to know that this is these are things that uh don't need to be shared with outside of officers. And that's hard, right? If you have a good, healthy marriage, you talk to your spouse about everything. Uh so this is uh, you know, this is a good reminder of uh being discreet. Uh that's certainly part of uh training. Um and then some of the more specific and tactical ways of of uh maintenance, church property, paying the bills, thinking about budgets. In fact, we're starting the 2024 budget so that really the conversation's going and really making sure the training includes uh some of the more granular details of of running the church.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

We probably should tell the listeners at this point, Jeffrey, that that you are an economist at heart.

Jeff Roach 23:51

I like to say I'm like, I'm like, I want to be like Joseph. He's my he's my uh goal, right? A godly man full of the spirit, and he really knew how to allocate scarce resources, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

That's a good that's a biblical picture. So in training deacons, it's very important that that elders are involved. I think you're right. And and they can they and they can teach the deacons not only diaconal aspects, but spiritual maturity and dealing with people with discretion and spiritual maturity. That that's all part of that. What do you think are some of the things that hinder the kind of development of uh diaconate that that we see in scripture? What what kinds of things can hinder that? What kinds of things can get in the way of joyful service? I think obviously the the one that you've mentioned already is a lack of communication. Um, but I'm wondering if there are other things that both of you might have any sense of.

David Nakhla 24:49

So I do think that if I could tie it to how the elders serve the deacons, is to be diligent in raising up more deacons. The raising up officers is the duty of the of the session. And I think that a hindrance that comes about is when deacons start to face burnout, um, when they're overworked and when there's not enough hands to the work. Diaconal work is is difficult, it's not always well timed, it's on call in a sense, and it it requires a lot of a lot of compassion, a lot of uh um emotional energy, and um and so that can um you know they talk about in in disasters, we talk about compassion fatigue. And I think that deacons can, if they are overworked, can suffer that as well. And so I guess I would suggest that a great way that elders can serve deacons is to continue to push forward with the process of raising up future deacons.

Jeff Roach 26:13

Oh that's that's a good word. I was thinking, you know, hindrances, perhaps, you know, uh this preoccupation with uh personal preferences or personal opinions or personal agendas, um, those are are clearly hindrances. Uh so the flip side, of course, is is having a true selfless, you know, not thinking more highly of myself than I ought to think, um is is uh certainly a reminder.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Do you think that the circumstances in which, you know, the the culture or the times in which we're living, do you think that those bring added pressures to deacons? It's life is complicated. You know, the there are a number of issues that complicate lives for families. I was I was listening today to a pastor sharing about a lady who who works in the medical field, x-raying, and the whole gender fluidity issue suddenly uh confronted her because you know, children as young as the age of 10 were being brought in for certain things, and it just became a very ethical issue. And that you know, both the deacons and the elders had to help with that woman. Um, and they they did, they found some very helpful ways forward. What do you think are the things that are making diaconal work harder today? And how can elders help deacons?

Jeff Roach 27:39

Reminder that we're always counter-cultural, um, whether you know 2023 or 1920s, 1820s, 1720s. Um boy, it does um perhaps just the ability that we have to do things today that we didn't have in in previous eras uh certainly adds to the list of things that are complex. Uh, but overall, yeah, just a reminder, we are we're counter-cultural when we when we uh think about um who we are and and what kingdom we're uh fighting for, and uh knowing that we know we're on the winning side, but um there is another another kingdom that's fighting against us.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah, so the even even diaconal work is spiritual warfare.

David Nakhla 28:35

I gotta imagine that you know we live in a day and age of high debt uh and how that permeates even the folks in our congregations and the burden of that. Um there's lots of confusion about what a family, what consists of a family and and uh responding to needs that are outside the congregation or maybe even in our congregations. Yeah, all the you're you're right, all these social confusion starts to permeate even the even the families of the church, and that and and though the you know, a lot a lot of these is where the the rubber hits the road is is in the work of the the deacons. Um so I I don't know a lot of those, I can't think of specific examples uh that I'm aware of, but I gotta believe that um that many of our deacons are facing yeah, some of the challenges of of the culture that we're we're living in and that the times that we're living in.

Jeff Roach 29:39

Yeah, I think, yeah, just to add to that, I think one of the reasons you know we exist as our book of church order talks about, um seeking to prevent poverty. And and it's probably fair to say that the uh a a Western society's view of what poverty is in 2023 is very different than than in um centuries past. So to add to David what you just said and and credit, that's an interesting one and worth highlighting. But um, I think it gets down to when we are with people in need, so many times we have to define what in need means because yeah, because what is a necessity today uh perhaps you know would be laughed at by our grandparents. So that's certainly a challenge. What in having the wisdom to know what it means to help and seeking the prevention of poverty today, certainly influenced by the culture around us.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

So one of the things that elders should seek to do, of course, is to regularly visit the congregation. Um, and we see a lot of discussion amongst um elders about ways to do that visitation. But you mentioned earlier about your your your care groups. So I'm wondering, do you do you think that elders and deacons should regularly visit members of the congregation? Should they do that together? So is that a you know, is that a priority? What what do you think of that?

David Nakhla 31:16

I would say that different different congregations, at least in our churches, do it differently. Uh, obviously the big historic pattern has been for a visitation to be predominantly done by the elders. And sometimes I wonder about whether we should be burdening the deacons with the concept of visitation. Uh, on the flip side, um, I've heard good arguments for diaconal visits, and these are these are probably not so much uh preventive maintenance, so to speak, type of visits, but these are situations where there's need. Um, and I do think that I'm uh I'm a big proponent of deacons not just making decisions, meeting with the family at the church building, making decisions there, but the importance and value of meeting with somebody in their home. Um and to when you're in someone's home, uh you you can make so many determinations, at least uh at least guesses at determinations of of how they're doing. You know, you could talk to an elderly person who says they're generally doing okay, and you go to their home and find that it's fallen apart, and that there's great need for involvement uh in matters that they never even thought to ask about. Uh, but a deacon's antenna would be uh up for those things, and they would sense those things, and they can do that when they're in the home. And I would say that a similar argument is for elders making home visits. You know, there's just something so important and valuable about meeting a family, both physically and spiritually, visits in the home. So one of the things that we've begun to do at Calvary, we haven't done it a whole lot, but we are beginning to involve our deacons in home visits as they're able, as they have interest, particularly if there is situations where, well, I would say especially where there's a situation that there is gonna be physical needs, uh, material needs, then it just makes a lot of sense to do a visit to have the shepherding elder and the um and the and the appointed deacon uh to be present to be able to begin to address uh both of those kind of at the simultaneously.

Jeff Roach 33:56

Well said. I think uh yeah, just to underscore when you have conversations in in homes, it it's so easy to get a little bit deeper than the typical question. In fact, we talked about this in last night's deacon meeting. You know, we say to a couple that needs help and we know they need help, we say, you know, at the church parking lot, it's hey, how you doing? Great, how are you doing? Yeah, great, thanks. Well, that that's that doesn't cut it. Uh and so being in in the home, it's a lot easier to get a few layers deep, deeper.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah, I think it it highlights the importance of elders and deacons working closely together. There really ought to be a very strong bond.

David Nakhla 34:43

It also, by the way, I should I should be remiss in not mentioning that, you know, when you visit somebody in their home or when we're visited in our own homes, it communicates it, that communicates care to such a degree that uh a meeting in the parking lot, a high how are you in the parking lot just doesn't do it. But for someone to to for for elders and deacons and pastors to to take the time to come to my home and sit with me in my home, our that ministry of presence in itself uh communicates that we care, that we're taking time from you know, all the other things that we have going on to come and spend time with you in your home. So that's just I think a a huge aspect of of the ministry of of visitation, which presumes I I guess when I think of visitation, I really do think of uh predominantly in the in the home.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Um the one other thing I wanted to ask or really comment on Van Damme in his book on deacons, which you give free copies at at the last national.

David Nakhla 36:01

Yes, we commend we commend that book uh whole wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah. Van Dam um comments um that prayer is extremely important in all aspects of the diaconal ministry. So my question would be how do elders help to foster that kind of prayer so that not elders and deacons are not just meeting together, but that there's real prayer going on. What do you have any suggestions or thoughts on that?

Jeff Roach 36:28

Yeah, well, it you know, he's taking that straight from the book of church order, the um that line about uh seeking to prevent poverty, referenced that earlier. Uh, and the rest of that phrase after seeking to prevent poverty says, making discreet and cheerful distributions to the needy, praying with the distressed, and reminding them of the consolations of holy scripture. Uh chapter 25. And uh a great reminder. I know in my years of deaconing, it's a it's a reminder. We don't often do that. It's so easy to think tactically of here's a problem, here's a solution, let's implement. When in reality, there's that last phrase of uh praying and reminding them of the consolations of the holy scriptures. Um that's that's a huge opportunity we often overlook. But uh yeah, just I think perhaps having more deliberate times between the session and the board of deacons fosters the right culture. So when you're in those moments of helping the distressed, it it really is as natural as anything else. Let's let's pray about this.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Excellent.

David Nakhla 37:52

Bathing our our ministry of mercy in prayer points to Christ, the true minister of mercy and and the source of all compassion and mercy and and even care for all of our needs. And so, yeah, I think it's it's sometimes easy to forget to pray. Um, but um, but it's in a sense not just teachable, but it is teachable in that when we are when we turn to the Lord, particularly in times of need, that it's it's really acknowledging that that He is the source of all the ministry, the compassion and mercy that we need, and He can supply all our needs uh in Christ. And so that should be at the heart of what of how elders operate, um, and and deacons just the same.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

That's a wonderfully encouraging place to to wrap up our discussion. I'm wondering just before I uh do that though, is there anything that we missed? Is there anything that you had wanted to say that you didn't get in?

David Nakhla 38:58

So we definitely would encourage elders to encourage their deacons to go to to attend the National Diaconal Summit that uh that the OPC Um Committee on Diaconistries hosts every four to four to five years. We don't have dates for our next summit, but I would guess that it'll be in June 2026. And when those dates come around, be sure to encourage your deacons to attend. There's great networking, great fellowship there, and um that just can't be duplicated when listening to podcasts or watching it on a video.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Thank you very much for joining me on today's podcast. Thank you, David.

David Nakhla 39:42

Oh, it's my privilege to be here. Such a great topic. Thankful for your work, and thank you, Stephen, for for your work on this podcast. It's been a blessing to me.

Jeff Roach 39:50

You're welcome. And uh thank you, Jeffrey. Well, you are welcome. A privilege to be a part of the podcast today.

David Nakhla 39:58

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.