SPEAKER_01 0:04

I think it's important for us to recognize that sometimes churches can send a very subtle signal. We don't always intend to send the subtle signal, but it's something like, you know, once you come to our church and and hold to this faith, look at us, we have it all together. You know, healed bodies and healed minds, there's no brokenness here. And it's not really accurate, it's a subtle way of trying to describe the gospel as only being an able-bodied thing.

David Nakhla 0:37

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode of the Reform Deacon. My name is David Knockla. I'm coming to you today from the OPC offices in Willow Grove, Pennsylvania. Joining me as a co-host is Deacon and CDM Committee Member John Voss from Covenant OPC in Orland Park, Illinois. John recently graduated from Stephen Tracy's MTI OPC class on disability in the church. And you'll probably recognize John from recent episode where we talked about OPC disaster response. So welcome back, John.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Well, thanks a lot, David. Nice to be back with you.

David Nakhla 1:32

Our guest today is Pastor Stephen Tracy. Pastor Tracy was ordained to the gospel ministry in 1990 and has served as pastor of Lakeview OPC in Rockport, Maine, since 2001, after moving from Northern Ireland. We're confident that his lovely accent can only improve the Reformed Deacon podcast. Stephen's church has given some good attention to the needs of the disabled community. So we thought it would be good for you to hear from him. Stephen, thanks for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Thank you so much. It's a privilege to be here.

David Nakhla 2:08

So in your recent workshop at the OPC National Diaconal Summit, you quoted John R. Dunn in saying, it's often easier for a person with a disability to get a beer at a bar than it is to enter a church to pray. Is that overstated or is that truer than the church would maybe like to admit? And if so, what are some barriers that get in the way of our ministry to and with the disabled?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Well, that's that's a great question, David. It's a great quote, isn't it, from John Dunn. I read it online somewhere in a list of uh online resources where I was searching for some resources on disability and the church. And I've never been able to find the original source of the quotation. It was maybe given verbally in some of the hearings to Congress on the passing of the Americans with Disability Act. Um, John Dunn was a politician and he was assistant attorney general in the Department of Justice during Bush the Elder. Is that the correct way to?

David Nakhla 3:11

HW H. W. Bush. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

I think one of the things that happened in the passage of the Americans with Disability Act in in 1990 was that there was a great deal of shock when that act passed, and churches and religious organizations were immediately granted exemptions from Title III requirements of that Disabilities Act. Those requirements had to do with public accommodations to be made to help with accessibility. And so I think it's not an overstatement. I think it's an accurate quote that in effect, the pub had to be modified by law in order to be accessible, but the church and any organizations attached to the church were exempt. I think that's an accurate quotation. People do face barriers with regards to coming to church. And I think there are barriers to ministering to people and barriers to ministering with people. We look at some of these in the MTI course. I think that some of the barriers have to do with our buildings. They've got issues with mobility, then you're already saying it's not going to be easy for you to get into the building. There are issues of architecture in terms of can people move easily around the building? Can they move easily from the sanctuary to the fellowship hall? Do they have access to restrooms on each floor? There are all kinds of aspects. And John Voss gave some very helpful suggestions to us when he was here taking the MTI course in in Rockport. I'm very grateful, John, for your your input on that. Things like um doors and signs is really helpful. John's got some expertise in that regard, right, John?

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Just gave you a page of the blueprints that now it's it's actually in Illinois, I'm assuming maybe in other states as well. It is required. That page that I sent you showing heights for signs, heights for toilet paper, grab bars, all of that is required now on the blueprints in this state. And that's very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah. Um, there are other barriers as well. Some of the barriers that people face coming into churches have to do with communication. And this perhaps is one of the major reasons that churches can be a little bit nervous of people with disabilities or families arriving with when someone has a disability. Uh communication can be difficult. Sometimes it's just as simple as we we don't know what to say. Sometimes it's as simple as we're afraid that we might say the wrong thing. Sometimes we're afraid that we'll just say everything all at once, blurt out stuff that is just awkward. Uh, sometimes, you know, if we're just if we're not familiar with people with disabilities, we just haven't been around in our own family background or in a church situation where people have disabilities, then we can just be very uncomfortable. And we can sometimes reveal our discomfort and our awkwardness by saying the wrong thing or by not saying anything. Uh, I think it's important to remember though that the person who's visiting your congregation uh has seen and heard it all before. You're not going to say or do anything that they haven't already seen or heard before. You will not be the first person to blunder around the disabled. I think though, that while there are issues of architecture and the building itself, and while there are issues of communication and learning how to be straightforward in our communication, I think really one of the greatest barriers can be the attitude of people. It's very easy for congregations to be judgy. I'm not sure that's a real word, but it describes what can sometimes happen. You know, if there's a young boy on the autism spectrum, he's not going to behave in quite the same way that you expect boys of that age to behave or girls of that age to behave. And it can be a little bit of a shock sometimes for a congregation. And sometimes with issues of disabilities, there are just things that are happening to people's bodies going on in slightly different ways. And we have to learn, I think, to be more patient with people. We can reach the opposite extreme too. Sometimes uh churches can be so intensely compassionate that they just ooze an awkward kind of pity all over somebody. And that can be just as off-putting to someone as indifference or or being judged. I've heard the stories of families on both sides of that. I've heard of families who have young people on the autism spectrum being asked to leave a church. I've also heard from someone who left a church because they just couldn't cope with the intense pity that was always being showered upon them. It's important, I think, in reaching out to people affected by disabilities, it's important that we understand the concept and the idea of dignity. And what we want to do is to recognize that dignity can be a very fragile thing and that dignity can be undermined in very subtle ways, and that dignity is an important thing to preserve for any family or anyone that's affected by disability. I think that you know, thinking about those kinds of barriers, I don't think that many of us are erring on the side of doing too much.

David Nakhla 9:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

There's always a little more that we could do to increase our our friendliness, our hospitality, our willingness to just come alongside people.

David Nakhla 9:20

Amen. Yeah. Can you give a for instance of a blunder, maybe, maybe even you personally, or something you I got all kinds of blunders. Yeah. And and maybe how you how how you overcame it, or you know, what came of it?

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Um, I I I remember meeting a young man in a in a wheelchair. He has um Dasheen's muscular dystrophy, which, as you know, uh people who have that form of muscular dystrophy usually die in their mid-twenties. And in this particular family, I I've known a couple of the members of that family. As time goes on, they increasingly lose the use of their body, their limbs. And I hadn't seen this young man for a year, and he was in a wheelchair. So I I I walked up to right up to him and I put out my right hand to shake his hand. And he was unable to move his arm anymore. So he just looked at me as if to say, Are you stupid? And I I stood there with my hand out for a minute, and then I realized, oh, I am. Oops, sorry about that. So I just uh that's all I did. I just put my hands up and said, Sorry about that. How are you doing? It's good to see you. Yeah, it was a blunder. I I made a blunder. He's used to people making that same blunder. Of course. I remember meeting a young man and sharing a table with him at camp for a week who was born without hands. And to be frank, I was just shocked. The first time I saw him, I was shocked. It kind of took my breath away because you're unprepared for what you're going to see. Yep. And um, I would sit at the table with his family, watching him eating. And very quickly, I realized, yeah, he knows how to do this. Yeah. He's been doing it for a while. Yeah. He's been doing this all his life. He was born without hands, but boy, he could get that ice cream into his mouth pretty easily. Yeah. And I realized, don't stare.

David Nakhla 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

You know, it's one of those moments. Oh, I'm staring. Um, I think just as time has gone on, particularly as I've volunteered at Johnny and Franz camps and become not so overwhelmed by seeing someone with a disability for the first time, I've become a little less awkward that I might blunder.

David Nakhla 11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

And I'm not necessarily embarrassed by my blunders when they happen, but learn to laugh and or learn just say sorry. And I think one of the major things with people affected by disability or families is to make sure that you're listening to what they're saying.

David Nakhla 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Ask them what they need you to do, what would be helpful. Don't assume that you know.

David Nakhla 11:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

There are horror stories of people in wheelchairs and and good Samaritans arriving to wheel them somewhere where they might not have wanted to go. The online community of blogging on the horrors of being pushed a couple of hundred yards by a good Samaritan. You know, people mean well, they think, oh, I can help you. Uh just, you know, learning the etiquette of things like that. There's there's an etiquette to how to treat someone in a wheelchair, how to treat their wheelchair. You know, don't lean on it.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Don't don't feel as though you have the right to touch that. And often when there are people in a wheelchair and you're talking to them, you just stand over them, talking down. Yep. One of the things I've I've learned to do is just needle aside so it's eye to eye. That's right. You know, small, small little things that say, I see you, yeah, and I'm interested in you, and you're a person here, and I'm a person here. How can I help you? What's going on? We all blunder, but taking that as part for the course is important.

David Nakhla 12:59

Yeah. It grows us, it grows us in our empathy for those who are different from us.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, it does grow us in our empathy. And I think it also grows us in making sure that the only thing that we're feeling is not pity.

David Nakhla 13:13

Pity, exactly. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Because the more that's the only emotion that we're feeling as we're dealing with someone who has a disability, the more we're we're just dealing with their disability, yeah. Not seeing the person.

David Nakhla 13:27

The person, yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

That's really important.

David Nakhla 13:29

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

One of the things that's one of the things that came out of that class, and it's something that becomes very, very apparent once you realize it. But maintaining and acknowledging that that disabled person is a person, and that person is an image bearer, that person is important, just like everybody else is important. And if you acknowledge that, that goes a long way towards helping them.

David Nakhla 13:56

Which actually is a very good segue into a question. Oftentimes we think of disabled as a category or a label. The disabled are obviously people, and thinking about our how our churches can better serve the disabled. Could we talk for a bit about the fact that they are people? What challenges do they face emotionally, intellectually, relationally, coming into a church that isn't familiar with them? It's not like they're going into a familiar place with lots of people like them. It's another world. In your experiencing, in your experience helping the disabled, can you flesh out a picture of these realities for us to better think about people we want to serve and reach?

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, I think that it's important to remember that when families affected by disability are coming into a church not familiar with them, that they there are going to be certain anxieties that family's going to feel a certain nervousness, I'm sure. But there's probably also a real hopefulness. Maybe this church will be a little bit different. And I think that one thing that you have to remember about someone affected by a disability or a family affected by a disability is that they've they've heard it all before. They know exactly what's what's going on, and and they're often exhausted. And I've heard moms say, you know, when they when they come to a church that they don't want to have to tell their whole story, right? They don't want to have to explain all their special needs because they don't want to become, and this is their phrase, they don't want to become that mom. And so, in one sense, you see, I I think families are are hoping that you're just going to treat them as normal while at the same time there are things that are out of normal or not normal that are slightly different, but they they just want to be treated as normal and become a part of a body. It would be helpful for you to listen to some families who have been affected by disabilities and ask ask them that question. Uh, what were their fears and their anxieties? You know, I'm I'm speaking as a pastor. Yeah. But I think if you wanted to ask some families what they felt about that, that would be very beneficial if you wanted to include someone like that or find a question to ask someone like that in this podcast.

David Nakhla 16:21

Yeah. And I think that that would be a certainly a great topic for a future podcast. Is just a whole podcast on interacting from the perspective of those who who've experienced these things firsthand. Clearly, uh, at this point, our listeners will have a sense that you have a lot of background and interest and passion in this particular topic, Stephen. Can you maybe talk about your history with the disabled? Your church, like the OPC, has been outfitted for the disabled. And you've already alluded to some of the things that you you have in your congregation, changes even made in the in the facility, that type of thing. But maybe just talk a little bit about your your background and what's what's brought you to this point today.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Sure. I think it's difficult for me to know exactly all of the things that have formed me and shaped me in the providence of God and and laid this as a burden upon my heart. I grew up in a family, uh, a very close-knit family back in Ireland in a small town. And my aunt had Down syndrome, my mother's sister had Down syndrome. And I ended up in my late teen years living with my grandparents and my aunt who had Down syndrome, and I lived with them for a few years until I was married. I I never, in the context in which I grew up, I never really was conscious that there was anything different.

David Nakhla 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Although I knew very well that Aunt Greta was different. I watched her as she got to know my own children over years as well. She was a part of my life and part of our home church. And yet, for all that, I never thought about how churches should help families impacted by disabilities or how churches should reach out to find such people in order to bring them into the church. In time, one of the things that in God's providence shaped me was that Sharon and I lost our first child to a form of spina bifida. But the form of spina bifida, as it develops, the skull doesn't develop properly in the womb. And so the child will be unable to survive childbirth. Um, and we discovered that at our 18-week scan. And uh, you know, that was a deeply shocking and painful thing for us. We were sent home from the appointment where the scan had shown that up and told to come back tomorrow and we'll discuss terminating the pregnancy. And, you know, you're numb, you just you you're cut in half. You don't you don't know what just happened. And that night, you know, my wife said it's not right for us to take the life of this little child. The little child is alive in the womb, and in time, the Lord will take that little life away. And so we didn't terminate the pregnancy. She carried the baby to 35 weeks and uh she was stillborn. I think that in the providence of God, that grief cut deeply into my heart and it made me aware of what it means to lose a child, of what it means to experience a medical disability in terms of something genetically wrong. I think it made me aware of what it means to weep and to struggle to find comfort. And I think that just gave me more of a sense of I feel other people's pain when they're going through those kinds of things. But still, for all that, it didn't push me to think how does our church reach out to families that are affected by disability. I think it probably shaped me pastorally in an understanding of pastoring people through their grief. But what happened here at Lakeview was eventually what happens to many congregations. A little boy was born, covenant child, and uh his name is Finlay. It's a wonderful young man. And he had it became clear that he had a number of challenges. And the more we began to interact with his his own family and hear and see, then I it's only when I began to hear and I began to see that I began to listen and that I began to look. And I think that pushed me then a little forward to start learning. Finley's dad is one of our ruling elders. And one day I asked him, Are there not very many children with disabilities in the area where we live? And he looked at me and said, Stephen, you just need to be in the specialist pediatrician's office at the right time. And I remember my answer to him, my answer was oh, oh. Then I began to realize, okay, so a lot of these families are bearing grief and sorrow. And Finley and his family have the hope of the gospel and of covenant mercies. There's a great comfort in that. But here are families, and maybe no church has ever reached out to them or tried to find them, and they struggle on every day. We need to think about how to take the gospel to those families. So that's how we started to have more involvement with Johnny and Friends and with their annual family retreat here in New England. And we found that organization to be very helpful in helping us to think through these issues. And so, as a church, we began to grow so that the whole church became conscious. It wasn't just the elders and it wasn't just the deacons, but that we were taking steps that the whole Congregation should be aware of and welcoming of families affected by disabilities. We've taken steps over time to provide people with buddies. So we have a number of young people that are on the autism spectrum now. And during our Sunday school hour, each of those boys will have a buddy to help them through Sunday school to navigate the issues that they need to navigate through. Sometimes we provide buddies for older people. We had a gentleman who recently died who had Alzheimer's, and his wife continued to bring him to church. So we provided a buddy to be with him during the worship service. And that helped his wife with him coming in and out of church. And it also gave her a little space to visit with other ladies in the congregation without having to always have her hand clinging onto her husband's sleeve just in case he walked off somewhere. We've encouraged some of our people to volunteer at Johnny and Friends family retreats. Those volunteers learn a lot because you suddenly find yourself in an environment where there are families that have numerous sorts of disabilities, and you start to hear and learn a lot and learn a lot of just small things that you can do that can be helpful to people. We also send any family that wants to go to that family retreat, we send them. We cover the cost, we put that in our budget. We cover the cost for our volunteers to do that as well. And that provides them with a respite, a week of camping. We set aside one of our Sunday school rooms and made it into a sensory room for kids on the autism spectrum if they were having a meltdown or if they needed a space in order to just get back into equilibrium. That space is there, fitted out with the sensory issue things that kids that are on the spectrum need help with. And we also have a little box of sensory fidget toys that we keep upstairs as well, at the back of our church building, just to help, because sometimes those sensory toys are just all that someone needs to help them work through whatever's happening at that time. We encourage everyone, we want to see them in the building, worshiping God together. One of the I love that beautiful verse in Romans that talks about with one voice, glorifying our God and Father. And I think my vision for our churches is that that we'll increasingly be able to do that, that we'll increasingly grow in our love for one another, and that we'll be able to join together in one voice to give praise and glory to God the Father. Those are some of the steps that we've taken as a congregation. I every now and then I we put out in our bulletin, we put a little bulletin insert. I give these out at the MTI course as well. Disability etiquette that gives some real helpful little pointers about talking to someone in a wheelchair, helping someone who's blind, helping someone who's deaf, what what to say or not say in terms of autism spectrum disorder. We just put that in the bulletin every now and then so that the whole congregation is getting little tips and reminders on how to welcome people and continue to treat them with dignity.

David Nakhla 25:20

Well, I assume we'll you'll allow us to include that in this episode's notes, that helpful point, because I'm sure that uh many of our listeners would like to benefit from that. John, you recently took Stephen's MTI OPC class, and I know that the workshop that he gave at the summit in his title was Ministry to and with people with disabilities. Maybe can I put you on the spot to uh interact a little bit with the and with? Why would he highlight the and with in that topic?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

First of all, on probably on two levels, actually. Again, we work with, we're peers, we're for all intents and purposes, we really are equals, right? We're all sinners and we're all children of God in God's eyes, and so we're really equals. Someone who's disabled has the ability to contribute in varying degrees. That's part of it. One of the things that I think is important I got from the class, but also in my own past, because I've had family members that were like your Aunt Greta, Stephen. And so we interacted as a family. And when you're dealing with the disabled person, you're also dealing with their family, and a lot of that came out, especially when dealing with but the two ladies who were there and talking about their experiences at the MTI course, yes, Suzanne de Boer and her daughter Sonia, John, John Galbrath's daughter and granddaughter.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Both excellent, give excellent help.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

They were very, very informative on a on a whole bunch of different levels, but even when talking with them during some of the breaks, and it's again looking at that disabled person as being a peer, as being a fellow believer, or maybe you're trying to get them to become a believer, and then involving the whole family as well. There were some interesting uh snippets stories that Stephen that you told about in the very first day, struck me about, oh yeah, you've been to the you went to, I think, a camp and you met a woman there who was talking about she went to this church and they had a place for worship for the people with disabilities. And then it turns out no, it's actually just a room. The sermon wasn't even piped in. And that's my but that's part of my selling point on with. I think we need to be with not just the disabled person, but the people that are with the disabled person. We're all in this world together, and we're all in this life together. One of the takeaways from the class was was that, and and that we're the other takeaway, I guess, would be the importance of dignity. Again, it's obvious. It's just we in that class, it took me two days, and and finally, Reverend Tracy says the word dignity. It's trying to figure out this word. What is this word I'm looking for on how I'm to treat people with disabilities? And if finally Stephen mentions says the word dignity, it's like, ah, that's the word I've been looking for for two days. Some disabilities are more severe than others, other disabilities. But again, everybody's a person.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

I was agree. I that's encouraging to hear, John, because I want the class to introduce people to the theology that lies behind where we're coming from. And so the readings that people do before they come to the intensive uh have to do with the theological understanding of the image of God, the fall, you know, all of those, all those aspects. But the intensive part is really meant to be the very practical part on reaching out to people and and helping them. I um and I'm encouraged that you you find that uh beneficial. I think it's important for us to recognize that sometimes churches can send a very subtle signal. We don't always intend to send the subtle signal, but it's something like, you know, once you come to our church and and hold to this faith, look at us, we have it all together. We, you know, healed bodies and healed minds. There's no brokenness here. And it's not really accurate, it's a subtle way of trying to describe the gospel as only being an able-bodied thing. And it's a subtle way of trying to describe the gospel to use the other word as a neurotypical thing. I think we have to be really careful to not treat people as though they're simply a ministry project. And for a family to walk in the door and begin to feel that they're just a charity project or a ministry project is not really going to help them. Ministry to people with disabilities is a recognition that everyone's made in the image of God. And we believe that that image has been vandalized in all of us, but we never cease to be human beings.

David Nakhla 30:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

So our goals, I think, as churches, should always be the same for every human being, that we need to do the work of evangelism, that we need to spread the gospel to everyone, and that when we bring people into our church by God's grace, that we then make disciples of everyone. Everyone is to be discipled. And not everyone is the same, but everyone is to be discipled. And that work of discipling, I think, will look very different from person to person. Part of that discipling, I think, is to help people find how they too can spread the gospel and disciple others. It's interesting when Paul talks about weakness and ministering from that place of weakness, when I'm weak, then I am strong. Something in us always wants to minister out of a position of strength.

David Nakhla 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

So when you think about disability, it's interesting that if we took a big picture, if you look at our pulpits, pulpits everywhere are designed for able-bodied people to be able to get into them. At the MTI, I put up a photograph of John Calvin's pulpit, which is huge, decorative, beautiful. But look at the steps up to that pulpit. You have to be an able-bodied guy to get up there. Uh, even the very image of the steps up to the pulpit say, yeah, gotta be able-bodied. Really? Is that really? Um, or think about missions. How many missionaries in wheelchairs do we know? Why is that? There's something in our mindset that we need to think a little more carefully about understanding that there is a place for disability in ministry, and there is a place for disability in mission. And that's why I think it's very important to not just say ministry to, but ministry with.

David Nakhla 31:54

It's August, and we're ready for round three of the Deacon Check-in. Whether you've been a deacon for 40 years, four months, or somewhere in between, I think you'd agree that it's important to feel supported in your diagonal work. That's where the Deacon Check-in program comes in. A quick 15-minute phone or Zoom call to check in and pray with another deacon could be just what you need to energize you in the ministry to your church. Maybe you don't need a boost just now, but another deacon might. Proverbs 27 tells us that iron sharpens iron and one man sharpens another. The OPC diaconate collectively has lots of experience in many different areas. Take this opportunity to share from your experience, and another deacon will share from his. If you signed up previously, no need to sign up again. We'll pair you up with someone new. But if you haven't, let us know you're interested by going to opccdm.org. Use the pull-down menu under training and look for Deacon Check-in. We'll put the link in our program notes. So, John, maybe you as a longtime deacon, but somebody who has so much construction experience, as you think about our churches and having gone through the class, what what do you see as the the barriers? Probably more the physical barriers, but it may be otherwise that you think we need to start thinking more about with our with respect to our church construction, church layout, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

I think in today's world, because of what's happened since 1988 or 90 with the American with Disabilities Act, architecture has been modified. I understand the principle of the old architecture, right? John Calvin walked up a number of steps to get way up in the air because we elevate the word, right? Yep. It's there's an implication behind and all that architecture going all the way back to the Middle Ages is about almost like a picture of heaven, right? We've gotten over that, I think. I think part of that is the reformedness now. The reformers uh already four or five hundred years ago began to break that type of thing down, but in today's society, yeah, uh the new architectures, especially around here, but I think that's probably pretty well all over the country, is to make things accessible. I've been to South America and they're coming up with asking us, well, what's the code for a wheelchair accessibility into an entryway? In a third world country, they're looking at these things. The brief handbook on it would be, you know, make sure your doors are wide enough to get a wheelchair through. Make sure the hallways are wide enough to be able to maneuver the wheelchair through. A lot of times people have a three-foot door, but if you've only got a three and a half or four foot hallway, the wheelchair doesn't have enough room to get through. Toilet paper holders need to be a little bit lower. Sometimes the toilet, the stool needs to be a little higher because someone who's walking disability, getting down to the where the old toilets were. I mean, it's just practical stuff, right? Door handles should be lovers for the blind. You don't want that person walking into the boiler room or walking into the mechanical room for the elevator. That's in some of the building codes today. They call it a neural knob. There's a little patch on the back of it, it feels like a piece of sandpaper. Basically, it's a stop sign. It says, No, no, don't use the don't open this handle because this is a place you don't want to go. There's a lot of different things these days and products that are available. Stevens Church, they've got a it's a lift. You can get those, they're they're not cheap, but they are available. And sometimes all it is is a ramp. You've got a little hallway, you go down three, three or four steps. I put a ramp, and now you've got the the person in a wheelchair, those who are somewhat unstable.

David Nakhla 35:42

Walkers, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Walkers, you name it. Yeah, get the right pitch. Yeah, there are things that you can do lowering light switches, raising and raising outlets. The person in a wheelchair has to reach that can't reach. The old way was 12 inches off the floor, it's hard to reach. Now they're 18 inches off the floor. The light switches used to be at four or four and a half feet, probably to keep the little kids from turning lights on and off, right? But someone in a wheelchair has to reach way up to get these things. The most of the building codes have been changed now, and a lot of just as an awareness as well, for buying older buildings.

David Nakhla 36:22

Sounds like the ADA bill was uh has been is proven to be very helpful as we move forward with these changes.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Some states that follow its own specific code, which is even more stringent than what federal ADA code is.

David Nakhla 36:38

Stephen, if we could talk a little bit about autism specifically, I understand that the autism community has a saying if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism. Um it's a spectrum, there's a wide range of disabilities. Um how do we help people see and be prepared, be aware of the wide range? And you've you've alluded to some of that a little bit in what you've already shared, but do you have any other thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah, I think the key takeaway with regards to autism spectrum disorders is to remember that we're not called to become experts in autism. I think what we are called to do is to begin to care for that person. And that's why I like that little phrase. If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism because it is a spectrum and each individual is is unique and carries with them their own cluster of characteristics. That's a cluster of characteristics, is a little phrase that Grant McCaskill uses in his book on autism. Grant McCaskill's professor of New Testament in Aberdeen. And he he recently published a very helpful book on autism and the and the church, Bible theology and community, autism and the church. Uh, and he, you know, he describes those places, but he has a very gentle way of describing them. Uh, some of the differences that people on the spectrum have uh with others is uh with regards to social interaction and communication. Their social interaction is going to be different. Just don't assume that one young man will behave exactly the same way as the other young man. One of the things I noticed about myself was that every time I see someone with Down syndrome, I feel I know them because Aunt Greta was such a part of my life. And I realize that that's not correct, but I also do know them. There are so many similarities. We have a young man with Down syndrome in our congregation, and he's so full of affection. And after every sermon, he gives me a high five, and then later he'll come and give me a hug. But every time I I hug him, he just reminds me of my Aunt Greta. I love him, I loved her. But when it when it comes to autism spectrum disorders, it's very important that we realize that we can that we can do that, that we can treat everyone as though they have the same social interaction issues and they don't. You know, some people on the spectrum may be very comfortable with eye contact. And so when you're talking to them, they're going to look at you and it's going to be fine. Others are not going to be comfortable with it at all. They're not going to look at you. And some people could can become upset by that. Why doesn't that kid look at me when I'm talking to them? Other kids on the spectrum, when it comes to eye contact, just don't know when to stop. So that can be disconcerting. So you have to learn what what way is this kid? How does this work for them? There may be differences of language. It is a spectrum, and some people are high functioning and have are very articulate, very capable. Some people on the spectrum are non-verbal, which doesn't mean to say they don't communicate. It just means that it's not going to be verbal, it's not going to be the way you expect it to be. And you have to do your best to learn well, what are the signs, or what are some of the small signs that I can learn in order to interact with someone? Sometimes the use of language may be different in that people on the spectrum may be brutally honest because they don't have the same filter working. That can be hilarious. It can also be painful.

David Nakhla 40:19

Yeah, painful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

They they also sometimes don't catch certain forms of communication. So use of sarcasm or irony or jokes can be can be different. Uh there's differences in this, I think, is an important one in what we might call um the importance of routine. Sometimes people on the spectrum just like to follow the same pattern all the time. In many ways, our churches are set up for that because they're not unpredictable. There's a liturgy, it works through it a certain way. Eventually, you know, someone on the spectrum eventually will become familiar with even the length of the sermon. You know, they'll they'll just the more they experience it, the more familiar they'll become with the whole routine of it. But anything that goes off that routine, well, that can be painful, that can cause a meltdown, got to recognize that. And then there also the other cluster of differences has to do with sensory issues. And those sensory issues can be really important to recognize the sound that some electric lights make that that we filter out. Other brains don't filter out, and that becomes everything that they're hearing at that point in time. Smells, you know, sometimes heavy perfume or the lilies at the front of the church. Sometimes those sensory issues can have a huge impact. And all of those clusters of things in in terms of autism can be present in mild forms or severe forms. It's helpful for congregations to know those clusters of things so that it slows people down from thinking, oh, that kid's just not well disciplined, which is often the assumption.

David Nakhla 42:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

And then the parents are being judged. Why don't you keep control of your kid? And it's really unfair because that's not what's going on at all. And sometimes discipline for a child on the autism spectrum can be really complicated to work through. And churches need to learn, I think, to be patient. Congregations need to learn to be welcoming, to be slow to judge, to be quick to listen and quick to see. Ask families what's most helpful for you. But we can't do everything. And I don't think that we should feel that we need to do everything, but we can take small steps to listen to people and be more hospitable to them. And sometimes it's not just saying or doing that little thing in church, but it's also making sure that someone on the spectrum is invited. The little things that happen outside church.

David Nakhla 43:00

Well, that's actually a very good segue into just talking about maybe respite care a little bit and how deacons could get involved with helping those you've called chronic grief. Any suggestions for deacons thinking about respite care for those who are enduring a lot of their own struggles and suffering?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah. By respite care, I think we mean giving someone a break. A break, yep. And uh and that can be as as short as 30 minutes by providing a buddy that will sit perhaps with the person that needs some help, and giving mom time to go talk to the other ladies after church that provides them just a little bit of space that they're not always simply having to keep their eyes peeled for their own child who may be in real danger of running off. You know, in the autism spectrum, you have kids that are called runners. And to be frank, that can be terrifying because. If you just turn for a second and they're gone. And then when you add the other clusters of behaviors, it's terrifying. So just providing a buddy that helps, or providing a buddy during Sunday school hour, or sometimes finding well-trained people that can volunteer to be a babysitter at home. But all of that takes time to build up a familiarity with the family. Yep. And takes time to build up a familiarity with the person that you're going to be helping out with. That can be some of the simple ways to provide respite care. At the other end of that is doing what we do and sending families to family retreat. We had a family that we sent to family retreat. And the following year, when they were back at the family retreat, there was an opportunity for parents to stand up and say a few things at the beginning. And the woman stood up and said, Last year was the first year that my husband and I have had a vacation since our son was born. Well, he was 12 years old.

David Nakhla 45:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

And I didn't know that. I I heard her say that and I realized I didn't know that. 12 years of your life, you hadn't had a vacation with your husband together. I think that we don't always recognize what families are going through in the other six days. So finding ways to train people so that mom and mama and dad can get a little time. Sometimes that can be providing someone who does babysitting in the evening for them or sending them on a family retreat like we do. In our church, one of the ladies now has been trained by Esther, who's Finlay's mom, and is able to stay overnight with Finley. And so Mark and Esther now can sometimes head off for a day or two, which is you know a gift to them.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Because one person is just well trained now in the knowledge of their child.

David Nakhla 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

In all those ways, I think it it always comes back to you just need to get to know that family, that person, and find the ways that will be helpful to that particular family.

David Nakhla 46:02

Yeah. Stephen, will you be teaching your MTA class again this fall? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 46:08

I don't know if it's coming up this fall. I think it is coming up next next summer. Um, but we've done it two years in a row now. And I I think we'd like to offer it maybe next summer. Okay. We do host it the last two years, we've hosted it here in Rockport, partly because one of the processes that I do is that I take people through our building. And that's where John was really helpful to us when I we kind of start outside in the parking lot and move in. Here's our ramp, and here's how we had to fix it, because the ramp that we had wasn't working. And so this is what we did to make this much easier. Here are our doors. Here's a problem with our doors. And and John gave me some helpful stuff on that. Elevators are completely closed in, so it's a lift. And here's how we funded that. It cost us $30,000. And when someone heard that we were doing that, they said, Well, we'll give $15,000 if the congregation matches it. So when the congregation heard that, it just became a designated fund and it was paid for very quickly. I think that it's helpful to have the class here so that we can show people here's our sensory room, you know, here are the thoughts and why we have it, what we do with it.

David Nakhla 47:19

So, John, you took the class. What would you say to encourage deacons to consider enrolling in this class the next time it's offered? I know it's this is MTI, this is ministerial training institute run by the Christian Ed Committee. Class is typically for ministers and elders, but uh others may be open to deacons. But this one certainly is open to deacons. So, what would you say, John, to you know, from your experience, pitch the class?

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I did have some pre preconceptions about what might be happening with the class. That's been a long time since I had to study. But it took a few a couple of weeks to get into the swing of doing homework, I'll say. Some of the readings early on were weighty, but as you get used to it, that becomes easier and easier. And ultimately, though, what I had wanted when it was suggested to me to go to this, I'm a builder, I'm a carpenter by trade, general contractor as well, and we deal with this stuff all the time. Every building we build in Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, we deal with this code. I wanted to have it become ingrained in my heart on why we do this. I already know why we do it, you know, upstairs in my head, but I wanted it ingrained in my heart. That being said, this class is a whole lot more than just making things accessible. Some of the information, it's educational, but it also makes you aware. I said, I dignity, the concept of dignity of the individual. That again, that should be a no-brainer, and it's obvious. And yet, it took this class to import that upon me and upon I think most of us that were there. Some people there had children and that were on the spectrum, I believe, but it really makes it a part of your life. I would heartily recommend taking the class, and that is for deacons leadership. Obviously, the church is run by the elders, you're gonna have to have have the elders getting on board with how you're going to extend the ministry towards the disabled and those who are with the disabled, but the deacons should be leading in that as well. They can be taking the active steps, setting up the committees, helping to get training, helping to do administration on this stuff. The deacons have all sorts of duties that they should be able to take part in. And generally, it's the work of the church that the deacon does. This is right up the deacon's job description.

David Nakhla 49:47

That's great, very helpful, Stephen. Maybe we can end with this. Oftentimes these topics can be overwhelming. We can get lost in the blizzard of it. Three simple steps a church could take toward welcoming the disabled.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

I think it's very important to remember that we can't do everything. That I don't think that we need to lay it on our conscience that we should do everything. But a couple of simple steps, I think, towards welcoming people affected by disability are simple things and they don't necessarily involve the phrase with disability. If I said the first most important thing that a church can do is be a welcoming church, of course we should be a welcoming church. Why should it be any different to say be a welcoming church to people with disabilities? Be a welcoming church to anyone, regardless of what you see. There's a wonderful passage where Paul reflects on the fact that we don't judge anyone according to the flesh anymore. We once judged Christ in that way, but we don't do it anymore. And I think that we know that we believe that, that we don't judge people by their appearance, but we often do. So being a welcoming church is a bottom line, really being a welcoming church to anyone, being slow to judge, being charitable. And I think do what you can. There's a wonderful sermon by Robert Murray McSheen, the beautiful Scottish preacher who died when he was uh 29 years old, who preached on that text where Mary anoints the Lord Jesus and then people are complaining about it. And he responded by defending her and saying, leave her alone. She did what she could. Isn't that a beautiful little verse? It just kind of lifts things off your conscience while at the same time encouraging you. Do what you can. And I think that that's where churches are. I don't think people with disabilities or families affected by disabilities expect the church to do everything. People are looking for a church that will at least be welcoming and slow to judge them. They're looking for a church where the first reaction will be charitable. I think it's good to remember what Jesus said in Luke 14, the parable of the great banquet. He said to the man who'd invited him to that banquet, When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or your rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just. You know, it's a great parable. And it's interesting that I don't know if this is the right word, but we spiritualize it. We spiritualize the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, as though every one of those words simply means sinners, because we're all spiritually poor and we're all spiritually blind and we're all spiritually lame. We are. I agree with that. But it's a strange way to read the Bible to think that Jesus doesn't also actually mean people who are crippled or lame or blind, as though all he's saying in that parable is invite sinners and sinners and sinners and sinners. When he clearly means and make sure that those are also people with disabilities. Don't leave those people out. I think that's a mindset that the church needs to learn and I think needs to continue to increase. And the mindset I think that we need to learn and increase is simply to love, because love leads to careful evangelism and love leads to patient discipling. Love means that the body grows. Paul says in Ephesians for rather speaking the truth in love, we're to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it's equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. That's a very beautiful idea, though the body growing, building itself up in love. And when we welcome people affected by disabilities and we seek to make them part of the body that we're not just ministering to, but with, and that they also are helping to edify this whole body to grow in love. Sometimes people with disabilities, you know, work to overcome their disabilities. And our culture admires that, but not all disabilities can be overcome. And sometimes when you're asking, well, what is that person's gift? What gift does that person bring to the church? Sometimes that person is the gift. And that very gift helps the body to build itself up in love because that very person pulls love out of the body towards itself and makes us patient towards everyone else. I think there can be profound impacts that people with disabilities bring to the body of Christ, which is why I think Paul writes to the Corinthians to think in terms of the church as a body with differing parts. God has arranged the members of the body, each one as he chose them. If all were a single member, where would the body be? There are many parts, yet one body. The eye can't say to the hand, I've no need of you, nor again the head to the feet, I've no need of you. Listen, he says, on the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable. Wow. That you know, reading that with uh an awareness of people with various disabilities, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker makes me think, yeah, why am I saying weak? These may be very strong people, much stronger than we know. And on those parts of the body we think less honorable, we stow the greater honor. Our presentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together. If one member is honored, all rejoice together. There are divisions in the body, but often it's because the strong despise the weak. And God has composed the body in such a way as to give greater honor to the parts that lacked it, in order that there would be no division. In other words, I think churches that are blessed with families affected by disabilities will not be divided. But if we respond in that way of love, that church will become much more united. I think that's how that text fits together.

David Nakhla 56:38

Well, thank you for that. Um all of that's uh Stephen. Um those are not three simple steps.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

That's what I was just thinking when I finished saying all that. Oh, three simple steps. So three simple steps. Be a welcoming church, be a welcoming church to anyone and do what you can.

David Nakhla 56:57

That's wonderful. And and anything worth doing is not necessarily simple, and this is worth doing, and so we're not looking for the simple, but but by God's grace, we all look forward to seeing how our church and our churches grow in this area, and even through the important work you're doing and and bringing our awareness to what seems to be a significant blind spot for us as a as a church, and uh you're shedding light on on this, I'm convinced is gonna reap great reward. And so thank you for giving us your time today to to speak with us. So helpful. And I hope many will join in your class and uh we can think more about this. Thank you, John, for uh joining me as well. Grateful for your willingness to do it. We'll have everything referenced here in this episode, a link in the program notes. So be sure to look for that to our listeners. Please like, comment, and subscribe. And encourage your fellow deacons to listen to the Reformed Deacon podcast. Thank you, brothers.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Before we finish, can I uh just add no shout out to Christopher Dugan.

David Nakhla 58:04

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.