David Nakhla 0:00

This is David Knockler with the OPC Committee on Diacal Ministries. We're bringing this to you as part of a series of special episodes of the Reformed Deacon. These episodes consist of the audio of the many plenaries and workshops presented at the fourth OPC National Diaconal Summit held in Wheaton, Illinois in June 2022. It's our desire that deacons who were not able to attend the summit or those who simply missed one of the many wonderful workshops offered will benefit from this practical content. If you find this episode especially invigorating, just consider sharing it with your fellow deacons. If it's an episode that's particularly suited to the work of your diaconate, consider watching the video version of this presentation together with your fellow deacons and discussing it. The videos can be found on opccdm.org. And now I hope you enjoy this episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

This morning we will be introduced very briefly to you Dr. Stephen Hayes. I think that he has a little bit of a strange accent. He is from Northern Ireland. And he pastors in Maine, Rockport, Maine. He's been there for 21 years. Also has a passion for the ministry that he's going to be talking to you about. He has a dear wife. I haven't met her yet, but I'm sure she is chairing, among the four adult children and four grandchildren. Through many events in his life, he has come to have this passion for ministering to those with disabilities. And uh I think we're going to hear this morning that, and maybe you already know, that churches aren't really set up to minister to those who can't easily get into our buildings who may have some special needs and who we may be overlooking. This is a ministry that's near and dear to my own heart, and so I'm anxious to hear from our dear brother. So let's give our attention now to Pastor Stephen Tracy.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Thank you. Appreciate it. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for coming to this workshop. This is an authentic Maine accent. Um I I I spent uh 38 years, that's the number after 37. Um I spent 38 years perfecting it in uh Northern Ireland, and now I've been practicing this true Maynor accent in in Rockport for 21 years. I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful to you for signing up for this workshop. It is a workshop, so please interrupt me uh with any questions or thoughts that you have as I'm working my way through the material I've prepared. Um there's really so much that we could talk about in terms of ministering to and with people with disabilities. It's very important that we add the little phrase and with because to minister to is perhaps a starting point, and it's perhaps a starting point that your church hasn't even reached at this point in time. But ministering with is where we want to be uh operating so that people with disabilities are indeed ministering with the body of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that we are indeed practicing what we were hearing this morning, uh the communion of saints. That's saints. Um the communion the um the communion of saints often uh is just not possible for people with disabilities, and there are many reasons um for that. Let me see if my first um there we go. Um this is Finlay Vinoy, he's a covenant child of our congregation. Finley's father, Mark, is uh a ruling elder. And I think that it's fair to say that Finley changed our church. And I think that many of you will identify with that statement already, because it's not until uh someone is born into your congregation or begins to attend your congregation with disabilities that you begin to have to think about the issues of disability and what it brings. Um Finlay was born into our church, he's 16 now, and uh I think it's clear to say that he changed our church. You might ask me, uh, well, what gifts does he possess in order to change a church? More gifts than I as a pastor, for sure. More gifts than elders, more gifts than deacons. Sometimes in disability studies and disability theologies, uh people are are pushing to try to identify what gifts does a person with disabilities have in order for them to use them. It would be very difficult to do that in Finlay's case. He's non-verbal, he's not able to move himself, he doesn't stand or walk. Um, he certainly makes a joyful noise in our church, particularly when we start to sing, he sometimes uh doesn't stop singing all through the sermon. We're used to that, it's part and parcel of the nature of our congregation. Sometimes I find myself wondering what his gifts are. And uh, you know, his father's gifted, his mother's gifted, his siblings are all gifted. His one of his grandfathers was an airline pilot, another of his grandfathers uh was a professor of Old Testament theology and taught at both um faith and biblical seminary. Um Finlay will not be attending Wheaton College. Finley will not be going to Grove City College, he'll not be going to Hillsdale, he'll not be attending U Maine, but Finlay is a child of the covenant. And rather than think of what gifts does Finlay have, I have come to understand as a pastor that Finlay is the gift that God has given to our church. And in time, God, in his goodness and grace has begun to add more gifts to our church. What I think happens to you is that you begin a journey, you begin to become aware of various aspects of disability and ministry, and you begin to find more people. There's almost an evangelistic aspect to an understanding of disability in the church. Many of you, I think, already know uh because maybe many of you have already gone through the burden of heart that disability brings. Some of you have already shared your stories with me. I think I'm going to try to start collecting the stories the OPC men tell me and put them in a little book because there are some majestic stories of God's goodness and God's grace. And I know that many of you already have that sense of what it means to have what someone has called chronic grief. Having a child or someone in your family with a disability or a severe disability is a grief that just never goes away. And it brings a certain broken-heartedness to our ministry. But Machin reminds us that we are the man of the broken heart. Doesn't he say that somewhere? That's a wonderful thing to remember in terms of gospel ministry. So, in terms of the communion of saints, when we're talking about ministering to and eventually with people with disabilities, we're talking about finding such people and bringing them into our church. Thank you so much. Bringing them into our church, discipling them as best they are able, and finding ways for them to serve as they are able in the kingdom of God. So thank you for the uh invitation to conduct this workshop. I appreciate it. The invitation from the committee, and thank you for your interest in it. Please interrupt me at any point as I'm going through this, and I'll leave plenty of time for questions. I didn't mean not. I did. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_10 8:55

Um, being the father of a 30, almost 32-year-old who's bipolar ADHD and has severe arthritis, and he has a son, and they live with us, and he has a son who is on the autistic spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 9:10

It's a separate conversation, but I think it's greatly needed is the care of the caregivers.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

That's that's you just mentioned, you know, uh in in many ways it's not a separate uh uh conversation. It is part of the conversation. I'm not really going to include much of that today, but providing respite um is one of the things that deacons are uniquely qualified to do, to find ways in order to give respite to a caregiver. That might be uh as small as uh being the babysitter on a particular evening or a Saturday morning so someone gets an opportunity to go shopping. Um, all kinds of or more long-term respite, sending someone to a well-run camp like Johnny and Friends family retreats. Um, our congregation, in terms of respite care, we currently pay the full costs for any family in our congregation that would like to go to a Johnny and Friends family retreat. Um, and last year we our budget was $10,000 to send a number of families and a number of uh volunteers to that particular camp. Providing respite is a big, big part of the diaconal work and of the work of elders overseeing as well. So excellent, excellent question. Sometimes it is the case that uh you you're you have a burden for people with disabilities, but you just don't know where to start. Maybe a family started attending your church and you you're becoming aware of autism and autism spectrum disorders. You weren't as aware of these things before, but um that child that the family brings, he doesn't behave in the way that you expect children to behave, or in the way the rules expect children to behave, or the way the row of ordinary tutters expect children to behave. Um the row of ordinary tutters? It's generally a group of older people who are quite adept at tutting when they see children not behaving in the way they think, when they see someone squishing under the pews, they it goes with an eye roll as well. I call that the row of ordinary tutters. Um every congregation has them, and it's part of our discipleship to move them away from being in the row of ordinary tutters. Um sometimes it happens that a covenant child is born, and as as as time goes on, you begin to realize and learn that there are issues, or sometimes you just realize that there are people to reach and you you didn't know them. You don't know what's happening. What we found in our congregation is that as we began to minister to a family with a child on the autism spectrum, eventually they introduce you to the other family that are their friends, and then after a period of time that family begin to attend church. Um the statistics in terms of autism are something like uh one child in about 50. We're around 54 at present, and the ratio is four boys to one girl. So girls are often uh on the spectrum as well, but less so than boys. Um, and the number just seems to continue to increase. The statistics in terms of disability throughout the whole spectrum of disabilities for Americans is roughly one in four. Um quarter of this room is roughly what you would expect in a cross section of a community. So if your church is a cross-section of a community, you can expect about a quarter of your people are in some way or other dealing with a disability. Some of those disabilities become more manifest as they're aging, and you're aware of those. I'm I'm becoming more aware of those. Um are perhaps not shared with you and will remain unknown to you, but uh the statistics are shocking. Depending on what state you're in, they change. The statistics for the state of Maine. Uh one time I was invited by the governor to to do the opening prayer at the at the state of Maine address, which is really quite an honor. And then it got canceled because an Indian chief in the Pasca Quadi tribe died, and so I didn't get to do the opening prayer at the main state uh opening. And I was glad because I would have to learn to say main state opening. The main so uh some of you are already on the journey, some of you just don't know where to start. I have a couple of reflections. Here are some common fears, and all these fears are perfectly valid. Um, we want to be welcoming of anybody and everybody, and you probably say so on the sign in the front of your church if you still have one. It'll say something like, all welcome, or everyone welcome. And I'm surprised in in some of our churches that someone hasn't scribbled under the bottom of those signs, yeah, right. This is America, after all. Everyone welcome, yeah, sure. Um we when it comes to disability, we sometimes hesitate. Sometimes because we just don't know what to say. Uh a family with a child on the autism spectrum, and perhaps it's quite severe, perhaps it's mild, and we just don't know what to say. Sometimes we are afraid that we'll say the wrong thing, sometimes we just don't know what to do. How on earth will we will we help this family? Or here's someone with a wheelchair, or here's someone who has is hearing impaired. We're afraid that we'll do the wrong thing, we're afraid that we'll say the wrong thing. Uh sometimes we we are afraid, maybe this was what comes to your mind as a deacon. We don't know what all this is going to cost us. Someone arrives in your church and they have a wheelchair and and they have to get lifted up the steps because your ramp isn't quite the way it should be, um, or uh it slopes too fast downwards and it's not getting in, but when they go out, they go out at great speed. Um maybe you just, you know, you see someone arriving and you're and you're wondering, well, we just don't have the resources. Sometimes churches say, you know, they have a disability in in Walderborough Baptist Church. They have a disability ministry in the next Baptist church down the road. You would be much better served going there. Um just because we don't think we have the resources or we don't know how much time this is going to take. Is this family going to start draining the diaconate of all its money, of all its energy, and of all its time? And then sometimes there are other things that we add that are just not appropriate. Um, well, you know, we're not really going to make any adaptations for a family with a child on the autism spectrum because this is the way we've done things for 35 years. It did no harm to our parents, and and they raised children and we'll all be fine. No, we can't really make any adjustments to the way we do things here. We've always done it this way. Or, you know, we don't make accommodations for everyone, so why should we start making accommodations for you and your family? Those are not really valid points to make. So we need to make sure we move on. I recently read a book by Brian Brock, who teaches in Aberdeen University. The theology department in Aberdeen University, where many of our OP ministers have gone off and done their PhDs, the theology department has taken steps dominated by the the uh work of John Swinton, that everybody who works in the theology department at some point or other has to turn all their academic interest to issues of disability. And so there's a vast body of scholarly work coming out of Aberdeen University. Some of it is excellent, some of it's almost excellent, some of it is, I'm not nitpicking it because uh I would have to say baloney after I'd said it, but uh, you know, some of it's not so helpful. One uh excellent author that does his work in Aberdeen is Grant McCaskill. He's professor of New Testament. He has a well-known book on the uh doctrine of union with Christ. His next book was on autism and the Bible. Uh it's a it's a very it's a scholarly work, but it's well worth reading if you want to start to reflect on some of these things. Brian Brock, in a recent book, said fear of doing the wrong thing makes it easy not to do anything. And that ought not to happen to us. Um we need to make sure that we wrestle on a little bit. So there are simple steps that every congregation can take. Yes, sir. Yeah, it's I I don't recommend it. Uh that's why I didn't tell you. It's an excellent quote. It's about the only quote I liked. I I I read my I read books like that with a pencil, and so in my margins, it's right like, what? Huh? This doesn't make sense. Um he he comes from a uh a Barthian background, and so it uh a lot of what he says in the book is really refreshing, and a lot of what he says is just wait, hold on, that it's just gone off the track a little bit. His earlier book was called Wondrously Wounded, um, and that's a theological reflection, and I cannot recall the exact title of the of the more recent one. It's white. And it's a little book, it's worth reading. I'll I'll I'll get you the title at some point when I remember it. Um, some small steps that we can take to moving, because you really do want to move from ministering to ministering with. So long as your church mindset stays in the in the in the mode of let us serve you, then we're giving you something, and but we're also keeping you somewhere. We're just kind of keeping you there. And that's not really discipleship. And when it comes to people with disabilities or families with children with disabilities, you are wanting to disciple those children, those families as well, so that you you do want to be moving people in their knowledge of Christ as far as they've been able enabled by God. And remember, to whom much is given, much shall be required. So you do want to be moving uh to a place where your church has reached a point where people with disabilities actually serve and are seen to serve. Look around your church building at and your church at who's doing what, and look at how able-bodied they generally are, or able-minded they generally are. Are we not able to serve in churches if we have a disability? There's a whole optic at work there that reveals, I think, some prejudices. The prejudices are called ableism. It's an awkward kind of word, but I'm not going to get into it today. We want to move uh bit by bit from ignorance, which is what? It's a common question. I I uh a Dutch theologian started to ask Dutch churches, um, he started to ask pastors, uh, are there people with disabilities in your church? And he found that generally there was a pause, and they'd say, No, we we don't we don't have any of those people. So I started asking that question in my travels. Anytime I would meet OP uh pastors, I'd start asking OP pastors, are there are there people with disabilities in your church? Uh well the pause was enough. The pause was enough to say, I don't think so. Then I'd push a little bit. He's not here, so I'm going to tease Eric. I thought he was going to be here. But I I met Eric a few years ago at the Presbytery meeting, and um I was asking him the question are there any people with disabilities in your church? No, no, yeah, no. And so I pushed and prodded a little bit. He has a son on the spectrum. Oh, is he not in your congregation? Oh, yeah, yeah, I never thought about that. Yeah. But that reaction of a pastor, often pastors have. Children of their own with a disability, but they don't seem to make the step towards thinking, how may our church minister to people with disabilities? Because it's just personal. We're dealing with my family, this is my child, and I'm thinking about that. And so they don't do the jump. Um, so we need to move from ignorance, people have disabilities, really? Where? To interest. Well, look, here's a family with some disabilities. How can we help that family? That's the first diagonal question. And you you you the first thing you'll do is you'll start asking yourselves, how can we help that family? And then eventually it will dawn on you that it would be really good to ask them. How can we help you? It would be really helpful if generally a family can tell you. Sometimes they'll tell you too much, sometimes they'll not tell you enough. Um, moving then from ignorance to in interest to intention. Yeah, yeah, we can do that. We're going to do that. Let's let's change the budget line item. Let's take uh some, let's have a work day, let's have a prior, we can do that to investment. You belong here. We're so glad you're here. We missed you last week. Where were you? What happened? Uh investment is moving people from simply this is a community, it's what we learned this morning, right? To this is the communion of saints, and you're part of that body of Christ, to a place of involvement. You can serve too. Here's a thing you can do. We have one young man, he's 22, um, he's just moved to our congregation and he's on the spectrum. And uh a couple of weeks ago he was in the front page of the local news because he was in uh Dunkin' Donuts, which is a famous New England institution. Uh and uh he was there on a Saturday afternoon.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

Dunkin' Donuts Day.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Dunk Dunkin' today is Dunkin' Donuts Day. Excellent job. I I hope that they know that in the for coffee. So he's watching a movie on his iPhone. He's killing a couple of hours, his mama dropped him, he was in between interviews of jobs, and he's on the spectrum, so he was getting very excited. And there the they called the police. They felt he was threatening. He wasn't threatening anyone, they called the police. Thankfully, the policeman took two seconds, realized what was going on, calmed everything down, and the and the Dunkin' Donuts found themselves not named in the newspaper, but everybody knew because there's only one donut store. There are other stories that uh that story happens all the time, and sometimes they end tragically in in police shootings of men, young men on the spectrum that no one just no one took the time to say, hey, hi, what's your name? Um so we want to move to a place where we can say to such people, here's something you can do in our church. So this young man is now in charge on Sunday mornings after the service is over, getting all the bulletins gathered up that have been left everywhere so that we have enough back for the evening service so we don't overprint. He loves that job. He goes through each pew making sure he's got it. He explains to us that he takes the crumpled up ones and throws them away because he can't repair them. That's okay, that's good. He's serving, he's seen to serve. Other people in the congregation know he's doing something that's helping all the rest of us. People know his name, they greet him. It's just it's just where you want to be moving that people serve too. But we need to understand that there are barriers for families with disabilities. There are barriers for people who have disabilities. I don't intend to work through all of these particular subjects at this uh summit. I state them here just to give you some of the idea. I want to concentrate our thinking a little bit on, I'm going to concentrate on two things, on accessibility of your building and on a buddy system, as two things that I think deacons are particularly qualified to help with and to bring friendship when someone arrives and continues to attend your church. But um, some of the barriers to attending or the barriers that uh continue to uh cause problems in terms of the communion of the saints are the architecture of our buildings, the problems of communication, and by communication I don't simply mean that someone may not be able to communicate with you, but I mean communication in the sense of are we hearing what's being said, are we understanding what's being implied? There's more to communication than simply someone saying some words to us, and then attitudes, making sure that the row of ordinary tutters just becomes um well empty. We don't want that row. We don't want that row. So I'm just gonna, there are a whole realm of subjects it would be helpful to go to, but I'm just gonna look at accessibility and then I'm gonna look at a buddy system. So if that's okay. Good. So here is um the question about accessibility at its simplest level. Can people get into your building? And and when they're in your building, can they move around your building? Can they find the toilets? Will they be able to get into the toilets if they're um accessible? Um, can people get into your building? Those are questions of architecture. Uh but before you even get there, I think that it's useful to ask the question can they see that they can get into your building? And by that I mean here's a a screenshot of our church website. And um it's a small thing that we we've done on our the it's the very front page of our church website, and uh all I all I did was add a picture. So we have a beautiful picture of our church building. Actually, the photographer used to work for the um uh the Downe East magazine, the famous you know, advertising, and so he's a professional photographer, and so he took this beautiful photograph. So though you see the one on the top, can you get into that building if you have a wheelchair? Well, actually, you can if you if you blew it up, you would see that that ramp is running up, but it's behind the trees, and you don't see that uh in your first glance. So I added a picture of the ramp. So that now it says the moment you visit our website before you even visit our church, which I think apparently is what people do now, I've heard. Uh now we've made a statement. Now we haven't made enough statements yet. Um there are more things that need to be said on our on our website, but uh now it it's something like yes, they're aware that people have disabilities, and look, they they make it clear to you that you can get in. I I need to update it, we need more information. We need to tell people that there are accessible toilets on the first floor and the lower floor. We need to tell people that there's an elevator to get them from the first floor to the basement. Um, I haven't got all of that up there, but it's right there beside welcome because we really mean welcome. So think about your church website. Now, here's what I was going to do, and I thought I better not do it. I was going to take a random sampling of your churches because I got a list ahead of time. And I was going to go to your websites and take the photograph of your church that's on it and show you what it looks like. Um, because you'd be surprised how many churches so I didn't do that, I just thought I would do a general picture. Your church website probably looks something like that. Uh so welcoming. You you probably even said at the front, welcome. Everyone, welcome. Uh, but it'll be a penitential crawl on your hands and knees uh up to the top. It'll be like Luther visiting Rome that time. No, I I I thought it would be easier then, and I wouldn't be found pointing my fingers at you. Have a look at your website. Does you what does your website say to people with disabilities? At first glance, it might be, it doesn't say anything. Actually, it might say more than you realize. It's a small, just a very small, subtle thing. So forgive me for having some fun with you there. So if you want to think a little bit about it, one of the reasons why that happens, one of the reasons why that's such a classic um picture of an entrance to a church is that in the past, when when church buildings were being built, because uh it was viewed as sacred space, sacred space always had to be a little bit elevated. So it's interesting that the that the tabernacle and the and the temple uh have that sense of sacred space, and particularly the the tabernacle, but the sacred so the sacred space is the further in you go, the further up you are, right? But but in the tabernacle it wasn't marked by steps. But in in the building of fine architecture starting in a certain period of time, sacred space had to be elevated from the street. Because you just don't walk into sacred space off the street. You've just come from the pub. That's easily accessible off the street. Sacred space is elevated, it's higher, it's a bit above ordinary life. Um, so usually that was the case. It was elevated by stairs, and there were stairs into the building. Often, many of your buildings have stairs into them, and then immediately have stairs back down on the other side for some strange reason. Sanctuaries were often placed, because I suppose because of space, above the fellowship hall. So you had the the church building was here and the fellowship hall was here. So sometimes you go up the stairs in the entrance, and then there'll be split stairs, more stairs to get to the sanctuary, or these stairs to get down to the basement. Obviously, you'd think that in the past people didn't have disabilities. But I think in the past there were probably much more uh there was disabilities were probably far more prevalent than we realize pre-medical treatments. Um sanctuaries often have um uh step-up areas within them. So even when you get into the the church, uh the building itself, the sanctuary itself, um, whatever way the pews are laid out, generally the pews would have been fixed and solid, and you would have to maneuver a wheelchair. If you think of um pews like that, when churches have made adaptations for wheelchairs, the adaptations are generally that a corner has been cut out or a pew has been taken away at the front. So someone in a wheelchair has the choice sit right up there at the front under the pulpit or sit right back here at the back and um that's it. Um the uh the step up areas for were often step-ups to the communion table and then further step-ups to the pulpit. What image does that what's the what's the communication of that that optic in terms of the communion table and then the pulpit? Yes, that's true, but now what's it say to people with disabilities? You're not allowed up there. I I think that's exactly right. If if the table is set up a little bit, it's saying, yeah, it's gonna be tough for you to get up, especially if you practice communion by coming up and receiving it. See? And the pulpit itself is like if you're going to be called to the pastorate, make sure you can climb pulpit stairs. And make sure you can climb down them again. Sometimes for me, getting in is not the problem. Getting back down the stairs is a problem because my knees have given up after the long sermon that the other guy preached. And so in older buildings, when it comes to restrooms, they weren't there. I have no idea why this happened. But older buildings had no restrooms. So, in when older buildings were being modified, they were put in as modifications, generally in a small space under the stairs. Little tiny. Like when you visit presbytery and presbyteries in an older church building, the toilets are something else. A couple of years ago, I conducted a wedding in in Rockport area in a very small tiny church that was in Cushing, which is on the coast. There were no toilets in this building, and uh the bride was late, and there was this steady stream of men across a field. There were no there was no restroom. For some reason, that's the way it was. So uh John Dunn is apparently reputed to have said this about the uh Americans with Disability Act. It's often easier for a person with a disability to get a beer at a bar than it is to enter a church to pray. Because when the Americans with Disability Act was passed, churches were and organizations uh associated, controlled by religious organizations, were automatically exempt, which caused deep distress in the disability community as to why on earth churches were exempt. You're probably glad, because the cost of uh building a building that's disability friendly or modifying a building is just immense nowadays, but it said something and it's not necessarily good in terms of gospel invitation. All are welcome, but it'll be harder for you because we don't have to comply to the Americans with Disability Act. So here's some practical aspects to think about in terms of your own buildings. Um, think about parkways and walkways, parking, where people park, and how they get to into the building itself. Have a look at those. Have a look at have you got the uh disability um signs painted on the parking spaces? Are they actually close to uh a ramp that people can use? What does that say about your church? Because that's the first impression. The first impression I think will be the website. The second impression will be when they arrive in their vehicle. Um have a look at your ramps and railings that go into your building. Um we put on an addition to our ramp because the wooden ramp that was built when the building was put up was built for New England winters, so it moves with the earth which moves for the spring heave, and um the over time uh that ramp had so moved that it was sitting two inches above the tarmac. And uh we began to realize as Finlay was being brought in in his wheelchair, there was always a pause lift over to get onto the ramp? Come on! What's the ramp for if the ramp itself is also a step? So we paid someone to make with this really thin sheet an extension to our ramp so that the ramp it still moves now with the spring heave, but it's this this thick. So that's also that's helpful not just if you're if you're going on a pushing a chair, that's also helpful if your feet don't lift too far off the ground when you're coming into that building. We immediately found that when that extension got wet, it was a death trap. Just too slippery slidey. So we had to stick um sticky tape on it with grip. We immediately found that the sticky tape on it with grip, when you're shoveling the snow in winter, it goes too. So we have to re we have to repair that ramp every every spring. But it's okay. We do that cheerfully. So have a look at your ramps and your railings. Can they be held on to and reel any railings that you have in the building, any railings that are on the uh stairs going down? Um in the church that we where I am, the the stairs going down, the railings are big, thick wooden things. They're very beautiful, but apparently the attachments that attach them to the wall were put on upside down. Um so instead of when you run your hand down the rail like this, there should be a gap, but they put them on upside down. So there's this big block of wood. So you're running your hand down the rail, clunk. I've often almost broken my finger when I forget. Now imagine if I was having to lean on the railings because I was doing it slowly. Um, we have to do something about that. Elevators and lifts. Elevators and lifts are different things. Um, and we learned this when we realized that for Finlay to get from our sanctuary to a Sunday school room or the fellowship hall, his parents were taking him out the front door, going all the way around the side and coming down the back ramp and coming in the back door. And it we thought, nope, that's not appropriate. And we started learning what do we need to do. And we learned that our building had been designed to have an elevator put into it. And when they uh when they finished designing the building, that spot for the elevator where it would go, they they put the furnace uh under it. I I I don't know why, but there it is. So we had we went to accompany what do we need, and then we started to learn there's a difference between an elevator and a lift. An elevator is one of those things that the doors close completely, the whole thing, right? But a lift is still open. So it turned out that all we needed was a lift, and it's got a little half door, and the seat uh you you you wheel the wheelchair in, you hold the button, down it goes, comes back up again. It cost, when we put it in ten years ago, it cost thirty thousand dollars. Uh we were just going to pay that. Someone in the congregation learned we were going to do that and said, I'll I'll give uh $15,000 if the rest of the congregation match that. Oh, well, that's kind then. So we made a designated offering. And we had $15,000 in in just a moment, and we had a an elevat a lift put in and uh we have to get the upkeep. It just wasn't it just wasn't as much a nightmare as we thought it was going to be. And it makes a big difference to a whole lot of people. You need to look at your doors and your doorways and your thresholds. Can if you're uh if you're approaching your building in a wheelchair, can you actually open that door to get yourself in? Sometimes people wheel their own wheelchair, and it's important to let them wheel their own wheelchair or they're or it's mechanized and it's going forward on a motor. Can they can they open that door? Will it stay open? There are all kinds of little gadgets and things that make those make that possible. Your doorways, are they wide enough? The thresholds, do they have little bumps on them that will trip people? Um and then look at your seating and how you've made spaces for wheelchairs. Do you have some chairs that have armrests? There are some disabilities that people can sit quite happily in your chair, but they can't get up again because they need to push on an armchair. We realized that when we had a family started to attend, all of whom suffer from Ellers Danler's syndrome, something like that, which is um a genetic disorder that your bones joints dislocate very easily. Um I was talking to the daughter who was 15. How are you doing today? I'm fine, I just dislocated my jaw. Oh, okay. She put it back in. Okay, good. Um the mother couldn't stand up, she needed armrest. As soon as we realized that, we we purchased um half a dozen and we interspersed them throughout the congregation. So it's not saying, oh yeah, all the people with a disability sit here. All the people that have special help sit there, all the people on the autism spectrum over there at the back behind the window. We just don't do that because that's not the communion of saints. Um, and then think a little bit about your restrooms and are they accessible and on what floors? Think about water fountains in your in your church, you know, those wonderfully safe sanitary things that the Sunday school kids all lick. You know, uh with certain in certain disability, you're not gonna get how like how on earth do we expect people to get around there and hold the button and get the water into their mouth and maneuver themselves? Just uh you know, like the little cup holders that are often in bathrooms, just put one of those beside your fountain because then you just need to take a cup, shh, drink. Just simple. But it just made your building a little bit more conscious that not everybody operates and moves in the same way. Your telephones and Wi-Fi accessibilities, they're important aspects of that for people with disabilities. Think about your sound systems and yes, Bob. So you had the what would you have Wi-Fi or stick with it?

SPEAKER_03 44:17

You just said that having Wi-Fi would be good for these disabilities or for to improve uh accessibility.

SPEAKER_12 44:23

Yeah. What would you use it for?

SPEAKER_00 44:25

So um one uh uh what some people who have difficulty with hearing, um, there are various systems that you can use in terms of sound, but one of the simplest is a particular app for their iPhone, and they plug in their own uh and it it can go straight from your sound system to their phone, and so they can be, you know, you can be preaching in the pulpit and they'll be listening. And we have one person that needs that and we're working on it, and I don't that we've got slowed down and getting it, but you would need Wi-Fi for that, and it's a very simple solution sometimes to someone who wants and needs some hearing assistance rather than having to go through a whole uh cost of rewiring a whole building. You do. Do you do you find it helpful?

SPEAKER_13 45:13

That's not why I can hear where the echoes or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes uh yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, you want to finish it up, but uh I was gonna say sometimes kids on the autism spectrum um need to close out sound, and um other times if they had if they had that system, then that would help them that they'd be able to hear and it would cut out the background noise. So hearing impairment can can uh cause that, and autism can cause things like that too.

SPEAKER_09 45:46

You know, uh we had a young people, we had maybe mid-40s something a mother of mobile teeth was very attracted by not coming, maybe coming from a church where the kids were separate, and here we have so we actually set up, we we're sure exactly how to handle the happens to be quite yet, but it did have conference from where people go there. Yeah, we can we can trust the idea that it's probably white.

SPEAKER_07 46:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 46:13

We actually looked into this and there were people still small parents, but you know what? Just the fact that we made that combination helped her realize I can't help and deal with it. Yeah. But there are people that can make it.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah. The simple fact that you cared and tried to do something, that's that's what's really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_13 46:32

Can I ask those who are using the Wi-Fi bases? Was there a substantial delay between when you're seeing the pastor and his movements going up and then when you hear? How bad is the delay?

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Is there any delay uh when you're listening to the sermon? Is it coming so that so the so the pastor doesn't go like this?

SPEAKER_04 46:52

I'm gonna say when you lay new carpet or something new, layer wires, at least part of the church.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 47:01

Well, um, the VA, I have a curation of the VA, they have a device you can go to the little I don't know what you can call it an app, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Do for dingle.

SPEAKER_06 47:14

It's it's all different. But I said it, yeah, I said it on the open. Okay and it goes from that right into my year one.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_12 47:28

Can either you or somebody else offer up what the name of that app is? Because our assisted listening system is aging, but and I've thought about designing this because I've never found one so that's out there already.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Maybe that's why we haven't found it. Because we've been we've been trying to get it. We know there's something that you can do, and our guy, our techie guy, is on it, but he hasn't got it yet. So if uh I'll be posting a follow-up.

SPEAKER_13 47:55

I just Googled it.

SPEAKER_12 47:55

The Sun Hydro Mobile Connect is probably what it is.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Okay. Okay. Okay. You guys are great. I love deacons. You just like just like that. Yeah. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_15 48:10

I might be jumping ahead, but I think visual is very important too. We gotta we suggested putting monitors up in the front. Okay, large large screens. Yeah. And uh we had some initially some pushbacks of well, you think you're distracting from the beauty of the sanctuary, that sort of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_15 48:27

Uh there's a lot of people that could not read the song books, could not follow their sermon notes or anything. Yeah. So we uh we went ahead and adopted that and thought it's been good. It's been a great change. Good.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I I I think excellent. Did you start that question, Bob, or did you oh okay. That was my okay. Okay, good. Thank you. Um does anyone have a church that provides American Sign Language? So is there s d do you have a congregation is there someone who's deaf and attends your church? So how do they have a hearing line? Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

They need to be able to see pay attention to hear well.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

So it's a chicken and egg. Isn't it? It's like should we put it on our website? We will provide ASL if you tell us ahead of time. Is that a way to say that? Uh and then if someone is so hearing impaired that they need American Sign Language, that that would be part of our budget to pay that person to be there to do the to do the signing at that time? Is the fact that people who are deaf are not coming because you don't have American Sign Language, or is it is there another reason? I I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's worth thinking about. Um and sometimes it's worth thinking about is there a deaf community in your in your area? Um I know of one church where there's a a large school for the deaf, and I wonder if that church then provides just as a matter of course ASL in every service. Um I I've been at a church where ASL is provided at every service, and when we sing, there's that there's a group of people signing the song. It was majestic. And that's the communion of sense. And it's kind of that illustrates a small point that I haven't really gotten into today. That I don't think disability ministry should be about setting up a disability ministry so that they get that there. It's about the communion of sense. We're together, and we will work through all our practices and accommodations in order for the body of Christ to be together.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

Um technology, I think it's got easy.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Yes, but it costs money. It does. It does cost money. So what? Yeah. We have found that it comes in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 51:24

You if you just say we're collecting for some majority, yeah. It's uh kind of a slow moving thing, but if there's a need, yeah, and those things material as we've seen.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Yeah, a designated fund. Um, in terms of uh sight impairment, um you know lighting is a big issue, and for children uh on the spectrum, lighting can be a huge problem if it's not if it's just not quite right, if it's flickering. Um we uh if if you don't have a spectrum disorder, your your brain just filters other stuff out. Like we there's a hum right now. All right, and and the most of us filtered it out.

SPEAKER_09 52:09

Turning on and off, it's been buggy.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Yeah. But sometimes kids on the spectrum, that's all they'll hear. And the and it doesn't matter what else is going on, or the prayer, or the song, or that's it. That's just a hum. Fluorescent lights make a noise that most of us don't hear. So, you know, lighting is a very important aspect of these things. Large print Bibles. Do you do you have them? Do you know where they are? We have four in our congregation, and they're kept hidden because the people who want to use them hide them in the pew they're going to sit in. So there isn't a pile at the back with a with a sign that says large print. So we're gonna have to buy some more and put it put a sign that says large print. Do you have braille edition? You know that the new Salter Hymna has a Braille adaptation, which if you request, you get it free. Isn't that amazing? Uh so if you're not using the new Salter Hymnal, there's no excuse. And think about your signage as well. Does your signage have braille on it? Toilets this way. Man, woman. Didn't you think about that? Or maybe there's no one sight impaired attending. Well, they already know their way around your building. Well, yeah. But you see how it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. Are you saying you're welcome or you're not? And just to end off this, um here's here's another photo um statement that I think is helpful for us. Pulpits, this is a famous pulpit, uh, are not designed for people with disabilities. And however much we try to think about this, we send a subtle signal that says people with disabilities are not really involved in public ministry. And and there are small subtle ways we say that. This is an exaggerated example of it. Um I have asked my my elders and deacons, we have three steps to our pulpit, and I really am fine getting in. But my knees are gone by the time I'm getting out. I'd really love it to be a gentle ramp. Um, because otherwise I have to lean on the end of the pulpit and it creaks, and then people see me going, and then I walked on as though, you know, I've got this. Uh, and uh I I think there should be a little ramp. Because that little ramp also makes a statement that says, even if our pastor is in a wheelchair, he's still qualified to be in the pulpit, isn't he? Or what is the extent of disability that disqualifies a man from serving? ARG? There's a question. Okay, that's me just being facetious about that. Um accessibility survey. I thought I had sent more things than I see included. I I thought I put this in your in your um in your folder, that accessibility survey. This one's done by Johnny and friends. It's there, okay. Is that the only thing that's in your folder? No, it's more. Okay, good, good. Because it's not in my online one. Yeah, the the print one got more of that stuff. So this you might find this a very useful document just to kind of work through some of the things that we've that we've said. Um the other couple of examples that I gave you are um now Johnny and Friends also have a church facility checklist. But the other one I gave you is a little sheet um disability etiquette. And I like the older version they have of this. That's the newer version that Johnny and Friends put out. But this older version um on disability etiquette is about communication. You know, don't lean on somebody's armchair or wheelchair. Hey, it's good to see you. Or don't push them off somewhere without them. There are horror stories of people in wheelchairs being pushed miles out of the way. Um, just it's it's really terrible. This little disability etiquette one in this form, um, you can photocopy it and then do it two-sided and cut it in half. So every few years, we just put this in a church bulletin one day. So the whole congregation is just reminded of just some ways of making sure that you're not communicating in in the wrong way with people with disabilities.

SPEAKER_10 56:47

Yes, sir. Yeah, I hope this is in a rabbit trail, but one way that my wife and I learned that somebody with a disability was ministering to a group of people. She was a missionary in Africa, and she had a condition where she had um seizures.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_10 57:05

And the mission board that sent her called her back because of that. But the people she served with saw this as a believer in a disability, it's okay for me to not be normal.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah. There's a a book, I think it's edited by Jewell, D-U-E-L, and it's on disability and mission work. And the that is the very argument that it's making. Why do we choose to model the gospel more often than not in missionary associates with able-bodied persons? When the gospel is out of our weakness, Christ makes us strong. The people she was ministering to. They got that.

SPEAKER_10 57:50

They saw that as it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 57:55

I don't have to be a hundred percent normal.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

There are there, I I think that that's a really valid point, and the book that I'm referring to, I think makes that point very strongly, and I think it's a valid point. I think that often in terms of mission work, perhaps we're afraid to send someone on the mission field with some form of disability because we're not sure of the cost of keeping them there. Um, but perhaps we're short-selling ourselves because there's more being there's more being said from the position we minister from. Yeah, good point. Um, okay, I hope that that checklist is uh helpful for you there and the other documents that I've given to you. Um I want to move quickly and briefly to talk about one other aspect of a practical approach that I think deacons are um particularly qualified to do, and that is to act as buddies to people with disabilities in churches. The uh PCA uh have a website. Uh this this is a subcommittee of mission to North America, so PCA MNA, and then they have a subsection called Engaging Disability. And Stephanie Hubach, I think, helped set that up. She stepped back from it now, but she's done excellent work. And uh they have a lot of resources there that you'll find helpful as well from a PCA perspective. Um, and they have this little blurb about body about buddy ministries. One of the most effective means churches have for providing needed support for children and teens and adults who have disabilities is a buddy ministry. Adult or peer volunteers can assist people with disabilities in discipleship, skill development, navigating church life, can be useful in many settings, Sunday school, and so on. Um, we currently have a buddy system that comes alongside a number of our young people and children, and we also for a period of time had a buddy system for an older couple, the gentleman of whom was suffering from dementia. He just passed away last month. But we had a buddy system that operated for him. This is a buddy system working in a Sunday school class, just helping someone get through their Sunday school material and be present in the class. Um we've provided buddies for some of our kids in Sunday school and some of our adults during worship. Uh, the the couple, their husband had uh dementia, they would arrive into the parking lot and uh we had four men on a route rotation. And if it was your turn to be a buddy that day, you were waiting in the foyer when you saw the car, out you went because she needed help getting him out of the car, she needed help getting him into the building, she needed help just getting to a pew and sitting down. You were the buddy, you're going to be with Kit all day in the service. So that means that Kit's wife Charlotte, she gets a little free time. She doesn't have to just keep her hand on Kit because you know, if he wandered off, that could be troublesome. But now she gets to visit with the ladies, she gets to um do things that are you know a little bit more freeing. That's a little bit of respite just by having someone sit beside Kit through the whole service and then make sure he gets out to his car and in his car to go home again. Um it can be easily adapted for all kinds of scenarios, and we have a number of uh people that help our uh a number of our kids during Sunday school. Buddies are are simply friends who help you at a particular time or place. I was gonna put Buzz up here. Um Buzz and Woody. You got a friend in me. Uh I think that's a good model for a buddy ministry. Uh so in one sense, you know, having a buddy there provides safety. Uh kids on the autism spectrum, yeah, you need to keep those kids safe. Uh some kids on the autism spectrum are runners, like gone. That's dangerous. It's really dangerous. They have no sense of danger that they might be in. Um, so having a buddy there who will just stick to them like cling wrap, that's a that's a ministry. And that's a ministry to the parents too. Um help with participation. So, in other words, the kid's not constantly being rebuked by the leader. Come on, Johnny, pay attention now. But is being helped by the buddy to join in, assisting with communication because sometimes, you know, understanding and saying the right thing or responding, help between with behavior issues. It's not our responsibility to address all behavior issues in a Sunday school hour. Um, but there are little things to do to redirect and help someone participate so that they are part of the discipleship process without their behavior issues being an impairment to them. Um I think it's all part of uh discipleship. When it comes to buddies, you need to select your volunteers, which is a strange way of saying volunteers uh, because if they volunteer, then they're selecting themselves. Not everybody who volunteers should be selected. So uh and some people might not volunteer, but you need to go and tell them to volunteer. Those are voluntolds. Uh, and and the voluntols do a do you know if you recognize you would be really good at this, um, go tell someone, and then you need to train them because there are things to learn, and and then they need to listen carefully to that family, the particular needs of that family. What does this mean when this is happening, and so on, just building up that familiarity, and then that buddy ministry can move beyond your church building.

unknown 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_14 1:03:51

As far as buddies go, you have someone, particularly in Sunday school, having a kid, you do you have concern or do you have to are there training? Um have them do you have a background check?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Yeah, the issue of background checks is a big thing, isn't it? We uh our church, our elders have not yet reached that point, but no volunteer, no one can be a volunteer who's not also a communicant member. So, and that's where our session is comfortable at this point. I I do think that at some point we're going to have to move towards background checks. But we don't we also have very strict rules. There are no diaper changes. Our nursery workers don't do diaper changes. There are no toilet visits. If if if it's a toilet question, you go get the parent. That's just a bottom line. Um, you're never in a room on our own. All our rooms have glass doors that you can see through. There's no, you know, we just we we have roles in terms of how everyone behaves. And all the volunteers are communicant members and therefore under the jurisdiction of the of the church.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:04

It's just something we have to need to do because the state is looking over our church.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Yeah, each state, I suppose, is slightly different. I I think it's inevitable at some point that we will begin to do it. We're not there yet. Um but remember it and it's at the point at which that ministry moves beyond the church building, providing respite for a family, a babysitter, um, working working that out, I would say, yeah, two buddies should be babysitting. It should never just be one buddy. Um, this this just be careful for everybody's sake. Um, and sometimes uh we're about to start a small support group for parents of kids on the spectrum. Um we have about uh we have about I think eight or nine kids on the spectrum. And I think that's just what happens when you start paying attention that one family tells you our church has made these. These adaptions and this has been helpful and they they just start coming. Um we are about to start a support group for those moms. We will in order to do that, we will have to provide care for each of those kids. So that might be a special needs VBS night, which will be which will be hilarious. But you know, those are some of the steps we're taking. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:26

Retired deputy sheriffs and policemen make great volunteers.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

Yes, that's we have one. Good job. They because they've got a lot of training already. Yeah. And they can find anyone to do it for you. Yeah. Um, there's two resources there, the the PCA's website, Engaging Disability. And then Johnny and Friends has a whole series, it's more broadly evangelical, so there are things in some of those little booklets. They're all free in PDF formats you you'll not agree with, but they give you a really good broad approach to things. Um two verses to think about as I close. Luke 14 is really important in terms of disability ministry, and it's been it's picked up by a number of organizations and Christian organizations. Sometimes they make a little too much of it and they push the exegesis a little too much, I think. But at the same time, uh Luke 14 is saying something concrete that we need to hear. So Jesus said to the man who'd invited him, When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors. I love the way he said this, lest they invite you in return and you be repaid. It's like you're in danger of getting a return invitation. Oh, that's what I was hoping for. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just. Over and over again, I hear families saying this to me. How can we repay you? You don't need to repay us. We're happy to do this for you. This is our joy. We're happy you're here. But let's just keep going forward so we can we you don't have to do. But the point I want to make is I sometimes reformed people exegete this text by saying, When you give a feast, invite the poor, we're all poor sinners. When you give a feast, invite the crippled, oh, we're all crippled sinners. We're all lamb sinners. We spiritualize it and remove disability. As though Jesus wasn't saying, no, when your church is inviting people, uh, make sure that you invite disabled people. Oh no, but he only meant sinners. Yeah, they're sinners too. But make sure that you're not just inviting able-bodied sinners who will be a great asset to your church. Oh boy, think of the things you're going to do if that person starts coming to your church. This is revolutionary. We need to think carefully about it. And the other thing is this powerful passage in 1 Corinthians 12 about the parts of the body. On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker. You see how seem to be is a way of saying, yeah, according to your judgment. So stop judging people according to the flesh, right? That's not what we're supposed to do. On those parts of the body that seem to be weaker, they're indispensable. On those parts of the body that we think less honorable, we bestow the greater honor. And our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, we all suffer together. If one member is honored, we all rejoice together. That's a very powerful passage. Think about the parts of your church body that seem to be weaker. They're actually indispensable. We thank God for people like Finlay in our church. And I'm sure you do too. Okay, that was a quick run through a couple of things. And you did grant asking questions and thoughts. What anybody got any thoughts or yes, sir?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

A number of years ago, I was a deacon at uh another OBC church, and one of my fellow deacons is was lying from since past uh the past couple of years. And um we got to know each other and they needed help with grocery chapter. So I didn't do that. And uh he would go with me, and I could tell you, um, I didn't care like he was uh a strong person who could talk about things like that, and uh it was scary. He talked me the things that I've just kind of reading in here, yeah, and um it was just uh it was rewarding scary. Yeah um still uh you can go and be shopping, but I still want that like it was uh learning to communicate, you know, keeping your eye open, yeah, to work on my website would go on end. Yeah and uh he would talk on top of it tell me to store on me because I would just start talking back. And and you know, he was holding up my arm, and he had to remind me of that a couple of times because sometimes I couldn't really I kind of forget that he was attached, yeah, or I would just start attacked naturally. Yeah, and um but it but it was scary. Yeah. Um and he might have those opportunities, but and that's that's normal, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

It feels scary.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

You know, how are you gonna respond?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

Yeah. He he was God's blessing to you, and he taught you much uh about caring for people. And uh the more I read and think, and the more experience I have in terms of understanding ministry to and with people with disabilities, the more I wish we could just get rid of the word disabilities and just say ministry to and with people. People. And and there was a person who was God's gift to you, and you got to know and learned valuable lessons about ministering to people. And because he was ministering to you. Isn't that wonderful? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you yeah, you yeah, yeah, good job.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:42

It's a really exciting thing to uh bring back to our churches.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

It's a it is deeply humbling because we live in a culture that admires strength. And even when it comes to disability, we admire people with disabilities who overcome. And they're celebrated. Um but there are some disabilities that cannot be overcome. And and I and there's a there's a it's just a very beautiful biblical picture to learn that we are all ministering out of weakness. And the more we could learn that when we're weak, then we're strong, the better. And I I think it would give us a far more robust definition of manliness. That's me just going off on a tangent. Let me not say baloney. I think it would give us a much more robust definition of manliness if we learned uh to walk beside a man who's blind, or a family with a child on the autism spectrum, or to look at our own children and see their own needs and realize God is teaching me that serving is about serving, it's not about power. Um so that the broken heart is a good place to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:09

Yeah. Um we have a family with uh boy, quite severe autism on non-verbal and no social skills. The question we're really puzzled with is how or should we even expect to be and make a profession or is he in a perpetual non-communicant state? Yeah. Um how do we wrestle with that question?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

That's a uh that's a that's not a deacon's question. And they're they're probably thanking the Lord for that. Um I I do feel that the biblical principle, all things considered in terms of profession of faith, I think the biblical principle that accession needs to come to bring to bear upon that is the issue to whom much is given, much shall be required. And so assessing the gifts that have been given to this particular young man, um, we need to we need to respond accordingly. Um, in other words, you would expect a lot more from someone who didn't have the particular issues that he has to deal with. Um but the question of their profession of faith, I think each session needs to work through that. Um he's baptized and is a covenant child. Um so that the starting position is that he is already a member of Christ's church. So so that if there's a desire for communion, is it coming from him or the parents? And are they understanding that he actually is a member of the church? Does he go on to take the Lord's Supper? The Lord's Supper does, in terms of a profession of faith, it does require a discerning of the Lord's body because we don't want someone to eat and drink judgment to themselves. But then you have to ask the question what judgment could this young man drink to himself? What sin? What opportunity for sin will he have in comparison to other people? And he won't have the same opportunities. I'm not saying he's without sin, but I do think that when we realize the level of gifts at one area, we should also reflect on the level of opportunities at the other area. Um if we take someone um with Down syndrome, for example, and professing faith, um, have you known someone who has professed faith in Christ with Down syndrome then reject Christ and leave the church? Has anyone ever right? Do we would we expect this young man how would he profess it? Does he is he able to communicate in some form through an iPad or a tapping or is there any level of communication? All of those questions I think would come to bear. If there's some level of communication and he's able to communicate that he loves the Lord Jesus, I think I'd be content. But if the level of communication isn't at that, then I realize, yeah, we uh we don't I don't know. It's complicated. Um I read something recently on it. Uh oh, I think it's an in I think it's on engaging disability website um in terms of that, but much of it depends on the level of his understanding. Remembering that we're not requiring the same standards. What but what would you think?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:00

I'm just listening and responding. He does have some level of communicating through computer. Yeah. Um we have a woman in a church who used a special children she was going to work with him to see if he can write something. And uh that would just be his approach. So we're we're trying to find our way in this.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

I think I'm always willing to err on the side of uh compassion and to think to myself um what grounds do I have for denying this person this further participation in communion with the saints? And if I had grounds, then I would hesitate. But if I'm recognizing his capacity to deny Christ, to be led into serious temptations that will lead him away from the church, you know that's that's less than the capacity of others that are fa facing similar things. So is he, am I afraid that he's going to dishonor the Savior? I don't think he's going to dishonor the savior. And I think on those grounds I would be more prone to do it. But I recognize every session has to work through that question itself. Um it's a very different question if you come from a Baptist worldview. A very different question, and they reach a very different conclusion, which is one of the joyful things about covenant theology. That our covenant theology already has a massive impact on who this, the identity of who this young man is. So yeah, there's much to wrestle with in that. Um yes, sir. They're very yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

I was wondering if you could comment a little more on uh ways to um to disciple the ordinary tutters in the city.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

Ways to disciple the ordinary tutters.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

In particular, a lot of times I think we get dressed up in terms of oh, we need to have good reference and not the work.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:20

And then I think it's twisted into a way that was not intended.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

I yeah, I and I recognize that's you know that that at points someone can be disrupting. And at a point it's better to move on out. And we have we have various stages of the removal from the cross. We have various stages for people. You know, the back of the building, our library has glass and a door with glass so that you can be, you know, it's our cry room. Then uh then we have a nursery downstairs. But we also took one of our Sunday school rooms and set it up as a sensory room. And we keep it locked, you're only to go in there if you're one of those kids that needs some sensory space and a parent is with you, um, in order to provide those um spaces for people to get some some clarity. But the ordinary tutters, you must love them. And they probably are the dear saints that built this church uh with their sweat and blood and are left, you know, the widows. Um and you have you love them, but you model love to everyone, in particular the the special needs kids. You model it to them. Uh and and if need be you take time to sit down and have long conversations to say, you know, I know it upsets you a little bit, but you know, this little boy is on the autism spectrum, and this is what this means. Oh well, we didn't have that when I was no, I know. But so you know, don't view it as bad behavior or think that his parents just need to discipline him more. Here's here's the ways that we're all helping him. So can you think about ways you know you can pray for this family? Just some of the things that that we heard this morning, I think, too. Yes, sir, in the red chart.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:15

Well, uh in our church where we have five families. And and you know, the question this gentleman here asked about you know uh uh opt is and you are knowing what we're doing on it and you know we have uh a few of those actually. But I there's another question here, too. Um would this I think uh off uh off match.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:44

So we have we have uh a few um older people that jump in and uh uh women would offline. Now they would table the the whole life what maybe not the whole life, but much of the offhand, and they have no idea what to do. We have one job and actually he would go up a neighbor, let him a script. I mean he would do it as a new thing, dark things. Um he had no idea what he would do it. Yeah. I I really do not think the Lord is going to hold that thing to guess because of what they end up with.

unknown 1:24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:37

I'm glad you said you're on the side of compassion and mercy.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:44

Yeah, and I I think in in that case too, you're not uh I wouldn't remove the sacrament of the Lord's Supper from that person, even though you know they've been led into sin. Um would any any less than the session would take steps to bring that person to trial. I I I I would hope our session would never do that. So I mean if if someone led a person with Alzheimer's into sin, um we would grieve, but I don't think that we would feel that that person needed a trial and um and then a discipline of being not being permitted to take the sacrament. Um I I think that it it that it's just sad to hear that someone would lead someone like that into sin. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:33

Um yeah, and I think it's important with people with disabilities not to make sure that they're they don't feel marginalized. Yeah. And so you look look for their gifts and find ways that they can also serve and give them dignity. Dignity. And the example of the young man with autism, I go to the same church. Uh our church serves gluten-free bread for communion because we have some people with issues with that. And we needed some people to be bakers, and I found out he loves baking. Yeah. Yeah. And so I approached the family and I gave them a recipe, and then and that young man with autism, that's one of his gifts.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:12

He loves baking, and he bakes the bread for uh he's serving the church, and he's serving the church something that he can't yet take from the church. Uh, note the word yet. Um I think the word you used in terms of dignity, I think that's crucial. In all our serving of people, in order to move from ministering to to ministering with, you must seek always to preserve their dignity. So that all your ministry is not a pity party or that they feel that they're just a charity case all the time, but that all the time your ministry to that person is really strengthening the dignity that God has given to them as bearing the image of God. And we're all broken, uh, but we bear the image of God, and we we have in some very small ways the ability to give uh back a measure of dignity to people who've been robbed of it, not just by what they suffer in terms of a disability, but by the culture around them. Um, so I that's a really important point. Yes.

SPEAKER_10 1:27:34

Just to expand on what you said earlier about manliness and its countercultural, it applies to all men, but especially applies to deacons. It's manly to stand up alongside the needy and the vulnerable and do what we can to get them up and protect them.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

I I really feel that deacons can have a remarkable testimony by the manliness of caring for Christ's little ones.

SPEAKER_10 1:28:02

Part of our charge is men.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:04

Yes. Yeah. But but the very model of caring for Christ's little ones is telling other men how to be manly and and Christ-like. Christ was the most manly man ever. And you never hear him in the scriptures try to define his manliness. Isn't that like isn't that telling? We are always trying to define our manliness. But you never hear Christ having to reflect on it one bit. What's he but he just gets on with loving and caring, and he cares for women and and children and men in all walks of life. It's just Christ is the true example of humanity. Is it time up? I'm so sorry. Thanks so much. That was really wonderful.

David Nakhla 1:29:02

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