The Reformed Deacon
The Reformed Deacon is an interview and discussion podcast created by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Committee on Diaconal Ministries. The Reformed Deacon exists to strengthen and encourage the brotherhood of reformed deacons in their God-given role of serving the local church. We hope you'll find this podcast to be helpful to you as you serve the Lord in your church. For more information about the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries, go to our website: OPCCDM.org. Contact us: mail@thereformeddeacon.org.
The Reformed Deacon
NDS IV 2022 Workshop: Refugee Ministry
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In this special series, we are releasing the audio versions of the plenaries and workshops from the OPC National Diaconal Summit IV, held June 2-4, in Wheaton, Illinois. There is so much good content in here, we decided to go ahead and release them in groups, so you can listen at your own pace. We've included the "gold nuggets", in this first grouping; the topics that were most popular at the Summit.
This session from the first group is "Refugee Ministry", a workshop led by Rev. Chris Cashen.
The video version of these topics are on OPCCDM.org. You may want to watch the videos with your fellow deacons, maybe even as a part of your regular meeting, and then discuss.
However you decide to use them, you won't be sorry you took the time.
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This is David Knockler with the OPC Committee on Diacal Ministries. We're bringing this to you as part of a series of special episodes of the Reformed Deacon. These episodes consist of the audio of the many plenaries and workshops presented at the fourth OPC National Diacon Summit held in Wheaton, Illinois in June 2022. It's our desire that deacons who were not able to attend the summit or those who simply missed one of the many wonderful workshops offered will benefit from this practical content. If you find this episode especially invigorating, just consider sharing it with your fellow deacons. If it's an episode that's particularly suited to the work of your diaconate, consider watching the video version of this presentation together with your fellow deacons and discussing it. All the videos can be found on opccdm.org. And now I hope you enjoy this episode.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Refugee Administrator. Chris is a very talented individual. Chris has got a wildly varied background. He was a lawyer for a period of years. He owned a home building business for a period of years. And then he felt the Lord's call to the ministry. And so he went to seminary of good life. And he's pastored a couple of churches. But particularly, oh, he also served as a deacon for a couple of years. But particularly relevant to the topic today was his experience with refugee ministry. Which I think was, I'm looking at still all his thunder, but he was very instrumental in helping pastors of cards, Abraham, one of the came to the states and as a refugee, and helping him work through all the legal paperwork, helping him to get established now. I think we can do the OBC's. Certainly the OBC's, well, I don't know if it's only, but certainly a refugee pastor in the OTC. In God's providence, about 15 miles from Far City, the largest concentration of refugees in the United States. And so the Lord used then that drew Chris to serve in that ministry and help get that started. He had a lot of experience with hands-on refugee ministry. He's written some wonderful articles, a series of four articles. They're super helpful to think about refugee ministry. So we've been blessed to have him on the coming down to Act Ministry last night. He was joking about losing Ron Pierce and not having a good secretary to replace Ron. How blessed us with a great secretary and Chris. So I'm sure that there's some wonderful uh content here, and uh no one better to speak with them than Chris Cash. So thank you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, brothers. Thank you, man. If you've got your scriptures, we want to close. Turn to Ruth, chapter two. I think you know the scenario. Ruth has returned, or not returned, but Naomi has returned. And brought along with her Ruth. Ruth is a molabite, which is significant. The portion I'm going to read is her interaction, initial interaction with Boaz. Just give attention to God's word. And they said, Well, may the Lord bless you. And Boaz said to his servant who was in charge of the reapers, Whose young woman is this? The servant in charge of reapers replied, She is the young Moabite woman who returned with my only friendly name of Moab. And she said, Please let me glean and gather after the reapers among the sheaves. And she came and has remained from morning until now. She's been sitting in the house for a little while. Moab said to Ruth, Listen carefully, my daughter. You might go to glean in another field. Furthermore, do not go on from this one, but stay here with my maids. Your eye be on the field which they reap, and go after them. Indeed, I have commanded the servants not to touch you. You are thirsty, go to the water jobs and drink from what the servants draw. And she fell on the face. Valentin grounded and said to him, Why have I found favor in your sight? You should take notice of me, since I am foreign. The Lord's replied, All that you have done for your mother-in-law after the death of your husband has been fully according to me. You left your father and your mother in the land of your birth and came to a people which you did not previously know. May the Lord reward your work, and your wages be full from the Lord, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge. She said, I have found favor in your sight, my Lord, for you have comforted me and indeed have spoken kindly to your nature. Lord, I am not like the one of the Lord's. I think it's a ministry that we as the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ need to be engaged in. And I'm hoping that's why you're here. We're going to be running through this pretty quickly this morning. I'm hoping that you're going to receive some ideas and thoughts and be moved to bring this back to your congregations that you might use this as a minister to them. Friday, but you have a lot to do. Have your focus on doing work, to serve, be moved by the love of and for Christ, and to be generous, and to show forth and model the community of science, and to help members develop their liberality and your role of training. All this sounds like ministry to refugees. So we have to begin with the problem because deacons are problem solvers. What is the problem? From Acts chapter 6. Now in these days, the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the hell in this arose. You are familiar with this passage. I'm sure that was a problem. The problem was solved because the apostles asked the congregation to pick out seven men of good refugees of the spirit. And we will appoint to this beauty. And as a result, the word of God continued to increase, and the numbers of disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, even great many were priests in obedience to faith. Problem led to the solution, led to more worship. Jesus said, In the world you will have tribulation. In the world you will have tribulation. Indeed, he told the disciples, nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. On April 23rd, we read this from Reuters. You're very familiar with this, I know. Russia heads into the third month of its invasion of Ukraine. What happened? Ukraine has killed thousands. Uprooted millions. It's a problem. It's a current problem. From the UNHCR website to the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, you can go to it. It's got a lot of information, and I'm relying upon much of that this morning. Current problem in Ukraine, and these are older numbers because I think these might have increased, but over 6%. 6.5 million refugees estimated to have fled to neighboring countries. We'll talk about those words and what they mean here in a moment. But I want you to see the scope of the problem. And on their website, UNHCR, this is just one of the many problems throughout the world. Ukraine, can you see the list? Kingdoms rising up against kings. Over 84 million, these are the numbers that are estimated by the million each. 84 million people forcibly displaced. You can see the graph down there at the bottom. 48 million people internally displaced, 4.4 million asylum seekers, 26.6 million refugees as of 2021. Again, all of these words have meaning. We'll explain those shortly, but I want you to see the scope of the problem. Many are children, 35 million, according to their estimates. Refugees that come to this country are just a drop in the bucket of the worldwide issue. Indeed, 1 million children were born as refugees. I think a portion of this presentation had Grace Vienna, and afterwards, a young lady came up and said, that's my story. I was born in refugee. Another problem, not just Ukraine, but I know you know of the Afghan problem. Former interpreter for the U.S. Army managed to make it to the frantic crowds outside Kahul Airport aboard a military evacuation flight out of the country with little more than two votes on his back. That's generally the plight of the refugee. If they're leaving a war-torn country, if they've been persecuted, they're not packing up their household and moving it in crates across the ocean. Spent a prolonged time in a U.S. base in New Jersey waiting to get someplace, waiting for refuge. These problems mean that there are opportunities for Christians. The whole law is with building one word. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Problems lead to opportunities. See that in Acts chapter 6, and certainly we see it today. Well, in order to understand this ministry, we need to understand some of these words, these terms that are being used, sometimes thrown about carelessly. But there are distinctions, and we need to understand them if they're going to be effective in welcoming neighbors. So who's a refugee? This is not out of a legal code, but it's pretty close to the definition, the legal definition, and there is a legal definition for one to be qualified as a refugee, someone who's been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war, or violence. Many of the folks coming from Central America are coming looking for a better life, and there's nothing wrong with that. They're looking for war, they're looking for better economic conditions. Those are good things. But that's probably not going to qualify them as a refugee. That's not going to allow them to seek asylum and be successful. Because of persecution and war and violence. Well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership, any particular social group. You have to identify one of those things, one of those reasons as to why you're being persecuted in order to fall into that category. Most likely, you cannot return home. Cannot return home because they're afraid to do so. It's the idea. Left their home country because of one of these things, and cannot go back. Ukraine gives us a good idea or a good chance to kind of identify these different terms and what they mean. As we know, millions of people have left, millions of people have crossed the border because of that war, because of that persecution that's happening. Forced to flee, crossing a border. It's one significant difference between a person who is internally displaced, and an internally displaced person will remain in their country. They've left their home. As we know, many Ukrainians have left their home, but they remain in their home country. A refugee crosses a border. Cannot return for a well-founded fear. That's the idea. That's the concept. In 2016, nearly 190,000 refugees worldwide were resettled in the country. About 85,000 of those were resettled. That means invited to come to the United States. They're not an illegal alien. They have permission. In fact, they've been given a ticket to come. And immediately they have an immigration status upon arrival. That's the idea. That number decreased in 2017. It decreased again in 2020, only 11,814 when we settled. 2021, 11,411. Numbers have gone down, but my guess is the numbers are going to be going up this year and next. Top five countries of origin. Syria, 10%, Afghanistan, 7.6%. And then Ukraine. Now, you know that in 2021, those who were fleeing Ukraine were not doing this as a result of the current war. They've been in the pipeline, they've been in the system. It takes time to go through it. Top five placement states in 2021 were California, Texas, New York, Kentucky, and Michigan. You can see that refugee ministry is not relegated to one particular state. It's certainly not relegated to Clarkston, Georgia. The thing that made Clarkston, Georgia so special is the fact that it's a small, small city, 1.4 square miles. And the concentration of refugees within that small city was tremendous. That's what makes Clarkston unique. There are more refugees in New York City or in Dallas, Texas, I'm sure. But the concentration was what it made it a wonderful place to minister. Titles are important. The difference between a refugee and an asylum seeker is that the refugee has asked for asylum outside of the country, which is welcome to them. That's the difference. They've made that application process, they've been found to fit the criteria, and then they're welcome. Here you see folks here trying to get off of a boat onto land. Most likely they don't have permission yet to enter whatever land they're getting into. They're going to be making that request for asylum as they arrive. UNHCR estimates that about one million people each year are seeking asylum. And you might be interested to know that anybody can apply for asylum. Yes, sir. Yes. Every refugee starts off as an assignment. We had a family come to us from the Democratic Republic of the Congo seeking asylum. They arrived in Ecuador. They either walked, took a taxi or a bus from Ecuador up to Laredo, Texas. Mother, father, and two children. Two little girls. And they got to the door at Laredo, Texas, and they knocked and they said, We'd like to come in. Now they didn't cross the river, they didn't not go to the gate. They went and they asked. And ultimately, after detention, they were given a piece of paper that said, go to court. There's a court in Buffalo, New York. Here's the date. Show up. And that's where they were supposed to prove that they met the criteria for a refugee. Ultimately, the Border Patrol lets them go into the country and says, okay, there you go. Make sure you're in court on this date. That was it. They had no place to go. But they needed to be in court on that date. Well, many times we wonder, is it safe? Is it safe for us to minister to these strangers? It's okay if we're talking about our neighbors, they've been living next door to us for some time. We know them, you know, the mail gets delivered to them just like us, but these folks? I don't know. Is it safe? Can I actually encourage my congregation to participate in the is it safe? Is it dangerous? Ultimately, the Lord knows. But there are screening processes that happen for refugees before they get here, and that's one of the reasons why it takes so long to go through that process and for a refugee to actually arrive in this country. This is a whole list of things that folks go through in order to get to this country as a refugee. I'm distinguishing this from asylum seekers because asylum seekers aren't going through this process yet. Refugees have. And so if you're a refugee and let's just say you've fled Ukraine, you've gone to Poland, now the UNHCR is going to vet you. They're going to interview you, they're going to ask you questions to see if you meet the criteria. There is a vetting process that goes on. If the UN finds that you meet the criteria, then the UN is going to be looking for a country to accept you. And if that country is the United States, then the United States begins its own process of vetting the refugee. It's detailed. It goes through a lot of things. Registration, data collection. Information is transferred, the Department of State, Resettlement Support Center. And then the information goes out. Security checks begin. All kinds of agencies are looking and reviewing the data. There's a screening that goes on with the Department of Homeland Security. Results transmitted back to the State Department, specially trained officers, screening results, conducting in-person interviews in the host country, collecting biometric data from the applicants. Security checks continue. The FBI is looking at the information. Department of Homeland Securities, Biometric Database, U.S. Department of Defense database, fingerprint screening reviewed by the Department of Homeland Security. If you pass all that, then you go through the cultural orientation and the medical check. And if you pass all of that, then ultimately you're going to be given an airplane ticket and sent to the United States. A ticket which you have to pay back, ultimately. Upon arrival in the United States, I believe it would be the Department of Homeland Security, then would assign this family or an individual who is a refugee to one of the resettlement agencies. We'll talk about that in a minute. And based upon particular criteria, they'll place that family or that individual in a certain location throughout the United States. Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was pointing going back to the process and depth there. We have to have to all the fact that I don't.
SPEAKER_03I don't have any idea or any data on that. No, I'm sorry. Chris, do you repeat the question? Yes. The question was: do I have any data on the percentage of those who go through this process and make it through? I don't have that. I would think that it's fairly high given the UN has already done their screening process, but I don't know. Yes. All of that screening is done before the airplane ticket is given. Now, asylum seekers, as I said, are not going through that process. Our family from the DRC just knocks on the door. And they asks, can I come in? Would you grant me asylum? Well, that doesn't happen right there at the gate. At the gate, they're doing a bit of screening. A review called an expedite review conducted by the Border Patrol. They're asking these questions. Why did you leave your home country? Do you have any fear or concern about returning? Would you be harmed if you returned? Do you have any questions? Anything else you'd like to ask? So there's an initial screening, but it's limited. And then many are either kept in detention until their court date or just let go. So asylum seekers fall into a different category. They're seeking refuge. They they want to be become a refugee, but they're not yet. So why minister? Why minister to these? The reason I began with that review of what we've been learning is that this kind of brings us way outside of our box. Way out. This stretches us. And I think the first question you have to ask is should we be stretched like this? Leviticus 19, when a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. Shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I'm the Lord your God. Seems that scriptures would tell us, yes. We need to be stretched. We need to love these as though they were natives. It's not the only place we find that. Deuteronomy, we see something very similar. He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow and loves the sojourner. You see, the Lord has placed the sojourner, the alien, into a very similar category as the widow and the orphan. Giving him food and clothing. Love the sojourner. For you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. Certainly the Lord himself spoke about the greatest commandment in the second, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And as we learned yesterday, the Lord doesn't distinguish between our neighbors. You know, we may not agree with our country's immigration policies and laws, and that's not really what I want to talk about today. But Jesus didn't qualify what kind of neighbors were to love. I was blessed by the sermon last night. All of our neighbors seem to be significant to Christ. All of our neighbors are placed next to us by God. I'm called to love them. But in addition to it being the Christian duty, there is a great blessing in ministering to aliens and strangers who also happen to be our new neighbors. The privilege of serving and seeing your heavenly father glorified. In the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who's in heaven. We don't know if those refugees, those asylum seekers are gonna come to know Christ. We don't know. You pray for that. We don't know if they'll become members in your church or not. Pray for it. But they're gonna be seeing your good works. And give glory to the Father. And if you don't take anything else away from this workshop, please take this away. Whether it be another member in the congregation or a stranger in your neighborhood, at least that's the way I think. This is a blessing for them. And in reality, the greater blessing is for you and for the members of your congregation. In all things I've shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said it is more blessed to give than to receive. My encouragement for you to pursue refugee ministry is really for your congregation's benefit. That this is going to help them and you grow in grace. That's where the real benefit lies. As you're taking somebody to a doctor's appointment, or you're you're helping somebody, they've received a letter in the mail from the government, they're not really sure what it means, and you're just sitting down with them, maybe having tea, and explaining. Oh, oh, this is what it means. You're growing in grace. You've just done a good work, but you're the one who's being blessed. It's a wonderful means of evangelism and certainly of personal growth in grace. I really appreciated Al Tricarico's comments about the church in Calvary and the effect that it's having upon them as they have welcomed in an Afghan family. Because this is not just the deacons. Indeed, as I as I read some of the things that are posted, it's clearly not the deacons. It's the members of the congregation that have come together to love this family, and it's taking the whole church to do it. And it's a great blessing to see how they're being blessed as they minister to these dear ones from Afghanistan. For deacons, ministry to refugees is such a practical way to encourage your congregants, to engage the congregation to participate in mercy ministry. Our book of church order tells us that the board, it's y'all, shall oversee the ministry of mercy. It doesn't say you shall be the ones that only do it. You shall oversee it. And that means encouraging others to join in with it. This is from the PCA's Book of Church Order. I'm not sure if it's current or not. It's under their history page, but it was such a good statement, I wanted to include it. Your duty is to develop the grace of liberality. Now we think of that usually in terms of money. I think it goes beyond that. Collecting the gifts of the people and distribute these gifts. Yeah, we're thinking about money. No, no. Think about all of the other gifts that the congregants have. And how you can encourage them to use those gifts. Encouragement. Just taking time, sitting with people. And that's a lot of what refugee ministry is, is just taking time. What's our greatest thing that we've got in America? What's the one thing that we don't really want to give up? Usually not money. More times than not, it's our time. That's what refugee ministry is. It's spending that precious commodity with another. Well, resources. Resources. What where can you go to learn about this? There are many places to go. Much information is on the web. But as we get into these resources, what I want to say is, in a sense, there's not a lot of training that anyone needs to go through to participate in refugee ministry. My guess is that Calvary, OPC, and Glenside didn't go through a class before they welcomed this Afghan family. Maybe they did, I don't know. No class. In order to go in and have tea with a Syrian family, I did not need to go and learn Arabic. I tried, it's very hard. A lot of times just sit and not much is said, and that's okay. That's okay. So please don't get the impression that refugee ministry takes language degrees or or some other kind of training in order to begin. We can jump in. In fact, there are many ways that we can. So books are a great place. Seeking Refuge is an older book. When I say that, I think it was written in 2016. Stephen Bauman, I believe, was uh part of World Relief, one of the resettlement agencies. Just a good book on the background of ministering to refugees. Seeking refuge. It's not current, but it gives us good information. It's a good read. Our website. As David said, there are some articles on the website there. Please go there, read those. Hopefully they're helpful. Send some comments back. What else would be helpful? The PCA has a significant ministry to refugees. And on their website, they've got information about how you can start your own English as a second language ministry. They've even got classes. If you go there, how to start an ESL ministry, ESL training, newsletters, a wonderful resource. Now, teaching English as a second language is not for everybody, but it's certainly a wonderful way to invite your new neighbors to come. Come to the church. Come meet congregants, members, teach them English, use the Bible. I can't vouch for any of that. I don't know. I've never been through one. But they're available. In fact, this is only three of many that come below this. New Afghan Culture Guide. Wonderful place to go, possibly to get some information before you or your congregation jumps in. Well, what are the opportunities? What are the opportunities? As we saw that the number of refugees entering into this country has declined significantly. So you might be thinking, well, what's the need? Well, the thing is, there are many refugees that are here now. Maybe not arriving this week, maybe not arriving last year, but they're still here, they're still in your communities. And they still need folks to love them and to continue to welcome them. As a result of the Afghanistan crisis, as a result of the Ukraine crisis, we're seeing now an influx of many, many more. The need has just mushroomed, blown up. So much so that the resettlement agencies, I think, are having a difficult time keeping up. They're always looking for folks to help. Resettlement agencies are a great way to begin a ministry. There are nine of them in this country, and if you go to the UNHCR website, there's a helpful click here button for a list of resettlement agencies in your area. You can also just Google resettlement agencies in Indianapolis, Indiana. You'll pull up a list. You'll find them. But here's the list. In Georgia, we were working with World Relief. They have a wonderful attitude towards churches. In fact, their motivation is to help churches become involved with refugee ministry. That's part of why they exist. But identifying a resettlement agency in your area, contacting them, finding out the needs that they have. They usually have orientation courses, ways to come in and volunteer, and then opportunities that they need volunteers to fill. And you can do that as a church, you can do that as individuals within your church. You can help set up an apartment. That's been one of the greatest needs for Afghans coming into this country because of the great influx. The resettlement agencies cannot handle the setup. And so my experience has been that they've been asking organizations, churches to come help set up an apartment. We did that along with Grace Vienna, our church. Family, this family from Afghanistan. He was an interpreter with a large family. And so we gathered furniture, kitchen things, everything that you would need to set up an apartment because they had been staying, this is not the whole family, they had been staying in. That camp in New Jersey for six months. And again, they didn't bring everything with them. They didn't bring anything with them. Now you can imagine the apartment was empty when we got there. And so we brought bunk beds, beds, kitchen supplies. Women came, helped set up the kitchen, had tea. It was just a wonderful time to spend with his family. You see, this young man's holding a skateboard. That was a request he had. This is an elder from Grace Vienna. He brought it to them. And so there's just that continuing contact. They needed a computer. So I brought a computer to dad, gave it to him. I think a week later it broke. But then he said, somebody else gave me a computer, so I don't need one anymore. But it's just that joining together, that continuing contact to develop that friendship that we've been hearing about. You can become a mentor. There's so many opportunities with resettlement agencies, and that's why I suggest it's one of the best places to start. English class. English class, I think, is one of the, in addition to volunteering with a resettlement agency, is a wonderful way to engage. And the commitment is not as great, depending upon how you do it. You can volunteer or find an ESL class that's going on in your area, another church, another agency, another organization. You can point members in that direction. My wife and I went to Georgia, went to Clarkston. This is what we did initially. We found an ESL class that was already going on, we joined, we volunteered, and then we began to meet refugees. And we learned how to conduct an English class. It's a great way to begin. And you can certainly have your own English class, and that's why I showed you the materials from the PCA. But having an English class gives you the opportunity over time to see the same people, to develop those relationships. Because that's really ultimately, from our perspective, what refugee ministry is all about: developing relationships, friendships, showing them Christ. You could establish an immigration form help center. That's a little bit more complex, but it's possible. And if you have people within your congregation, maybe an attorney, maybe a paralegal, that would be an excellent way to venture into refugee ministry. The government has set up this possibility that you can actually become accredited to help. It's a little bit more involved, a bit more complex, but these opportunities are wonderful. The family that came to us from Congo, as I told you, were given a notice, go to court on this day in Buffalo. Now remember, they they crossed the border at Laredo, Texas. They thought they were going to Buffalo, but they never got there. They got to a house that welcomed asylum seekers in Austin, Texas. And that house couldn't take them. It was full. If you welcome an asylum-seeking family, you need to be aware that that is a component that would be very welcome and necessary. We ultimately did travel to Buffalo. Hearing was only 10 minutes. And we got the case moved to Atlanta. And if you would pray for the family. This is a picture of them. Mom, Dad, now married. They weren't when they came here. Mom is now baptized, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. She wasn't when she came. The two older children crossed Central America with mom and dad. And the child, the baby, was just born here recently. Their case for asylum is coming up next month. They've been here since November 2018. But it's been a blessing to the church. Hewell's here from Redeemer. I think he can tell you what a blessing the church has received as a result of receiving this family. Now let me say, we couldn't have done that if we weren't a connected church. If we weren't the OPC. Because funds to support this family came from your dollars that you give to the OPC. We were able to do that because we're a connected church. That's a wonderful ministry. That's basically what Calvary OPC is doing. Even though dad has an SIV visa, right? Welcoming an asylum-seeking family is a great blessing. Brothers, that's what I wanted to present to you this morning. That's just skimming over the top of refugee ministry. When we began, I I said that you've learned a lot this week, been reminded of a lot this week. But I think all of it comes together in a sense in refugee ministry. All of those things can be put to work in a ministry to refugees. So I'm encouraging you today. Think about this, pray about this. Take this back to your churches. Take some time to investigate. See who your new neighbors are. See how you might encourage your congregations to be involved.
David NakhlaThanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reform Deacon podcast.
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