David Nakhla 0:01

Welcome to the Reform Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode of the Reform Deacon. I'm David Knockla, and I'm sitting here in Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, meeting with John Idy, Country Team Leader for the work of the PCA's Mission to the World MTW in Ukraine. We met over coffee when I passed through Krakow in May, and now John is here in the Philadelphia area. His home away from home when not in Ukraine. It occurred to me that this would be a great opportunity to gather a firsthand account and summary of much of that which has transpired in the work of the team in Ukraine and even some visibility in the thoughts as we look ahead. John, thanks for your willingness to chat with me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Very happy to awesome.

David Nakhla 1:03

So, John, if you would introduce yourself and um kind of the history of your work and that of MTWs in Ukraine up until February 24th. So kind of spell out a little bit, you know, what what's transpired up until our kind of crazy, crazy day now.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, yeah. So Mission of the World started our work in Ukraine in the early 90s when we participated in, along with many other missions, the targeted area of the Soviet Union from a number of missions called the Co Mission. And uh we worked in MTW uh worked in Ukraine as a part of the co-mission and worked in and developed that mission in that part of the country, and by God's grace saw a number of churches in the end forming a denomination that came as a result of that, uh, which is now 15 churches in 12 cities uh across the country, two of which now in what you referenced is in Russian-controlled areas. Uh two of those churches. Our personal family, my wife and I and our family moved to Ukraine in 1997, and we've been there uh mostly since uh since then um and came back to get our our son some some help. And then when the war began, we we went over again. But it's been a privilege to see a denomination rise up out of really nothing, and in in this case, actually nothing, uh, because of the Soviet Union and the breakup in 1991. And a publishing house, you know, we've seen our seminary in Kiev uh come out of that and and so forth. And it's been really, really, really amazing to see how God has uh worked in and developed and brought this denomination to the place that it is today. Which is of course why it's so much more tragic and sad to see the country and by extension the church uh be so affected negatively by this by this war uh with people scattered all over Europe and and so forth.

David Nakhla 3:05

But and the church you guys are working with who you who you establish as the Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Ukraine?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

That's right. Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Ukraine.

David Nakhla 3:14

How many pastors does it have now?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Oh 15 churches in 13 cities. Actually, Hero Huckaboard from the OPC is our only non-Ukrainian pastor right now. However, his Ukrainian is probably better than some of our other Ukrainian pastors, Ukrainian. And that's actually not a joke because some of our are primarily Russian speakers and they struggle in Ukrainian, and Heroes Ukrainian is very, very good. So he is our only non-Ukrainian pastor at this point. All the us all the rest are are uh are local Ukrainian guys. At our presbytery meetings, we we have 20 or so people between those ordained, between uh teaching elders, between those coming in as candidates, okay, stuff like that. Great.

David Nakhla 3:50

And can you describe maybe the MTW team and where again pre-war, where were you guys located?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah. We were and are, I guess, still located in the three larger cities in Ukraine, Odessa, Kyiv, and uh Lviv. And we're in church in the east in Herson, which is a city that's now in Russian controlled territory for the time being. We're talking June, uh July 20, summer of 2022. So we'll see what happens this fall with that city and with the country, etc., etc. Uh, but our MTW work has 20 families in in three cities. Uh we moved out of one of those cities, mainly focusing on church planting. Obviously, the team in Kiev, where the seminary is, has a presence at the seminary in in uh the capacity of teaching and dean of students and things like that. Um but the denomination is primarily Ukrainian-run, Ukrainian-led. The presbytery, as it stands in Ukraine, uh is a Ukrainian presbytery with Ukrainian-led uh missionaries are given a vote. One or two missionaries each presbytery are given a vote. Okay. A hero, for example, as the pastor of the church gets a vote of the presbytery. But otherwise, I show up at the presbytery, even though I have this title of being the country director of Ukraine, I don't I don't necessarily have a vote at that presbytery unless I'm given it. Same goes for the seminary, it's the Ukrainian board led by Ukrainian church. It's been beautiful on a number of levels, really, to see. It's it's been beautiful to see the church and the denomination grow. It's also been beautiful to see it grow as a Ukrainian entity and as a Ukrainian thing. Um, and it make you know decisions and partnerships with other countries and and uh and all that stuff. And I think as a result, we've seen the response in this war, in our case, to be very Ukrainian-led. MTW, by God's grace, uh, has raised some lots of churches and lots of people have given a substantial amount of money toward this war. All of that, almost all of that money is going to the denomination, to the churches, in their place. They're setting up the the shelters. Most of the churches are full of of um of displaced people right now as it is. They're setting up the shelters, they're deciding who the their deacons and elders are deciding who help who needs help and and how to help them and and and so forth. So it's really been beautiful to see this partnership working together pre-war, and then the trust and development, everything continue to serve us, and more importantly, to serve obviously the country and and uh and everybody suffering so greatly right now post post-war as well.

David Nakhla 6:19

Yeah, that's that's that's a win to see the the church that you've been working with for 30 years now to be leading in ministry to to itself and to those around them. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk about the work that's been done since February 24, maybe the immediate work, and then how that's maybe transitioned even to today? Just kind of paint the paint the big picture.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah. February 24th at 4 a.m., Russia initiated their full-scale invasion of Ukraine with bombings in most of the larger cities in the country. That started a wave of immigration from the country to the west and further into Europe. Poland, all of the borders that uh countries that border Ukraine, uh Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Moldova, were all all the border crossings were full, and all the people were were uh in this case mostly women and children, with few exceptions. If you have over three children and if or if you're disabled, uh men cannot leave the country. And there aren't too many of those exceptions, at least in our churches. And so on that day, we saw a displaced person refugee crisis like we haven't seen in a long time. It's a very specific one because it was 90 something, five, six, seven, eight, nine percent women and children crossing the borders. Most of them, many, many of them, no, not most, many of them, may or may not have had passports themselves. There a lot of children didn't have passports, they're bringing in pets without documents into the EU. Typically, the bar is fairly high on documentation. You need to get to the EU. We were still in COVID times in February 24th, where in order to enter the EU needed a COVID test and you needed all that stuff. All of that, amazingly, really, really amazingly, all of that was waived. I mean, let letting people without passports into the EU is not something that's typically done, and it was and it was done. That wave came through a number of our cities. Uh came through Odessa, came through, came from Kyiv, and most importantly came through Lviv, a city in the far west of uh of Ukraine, an hour or so from the border. That team, we had prepared at some nothing for nothing like this, but we had prepared at some level. We rented some space, we put some cots in a building just in case something might happen, bought a couple of generators, and really that was about the that was about it. But did have a crisis team in place and did have a thought of oh, how would we respond theoretically? Of course it's never gonna happen, but theoretically, if something should happen, how would we respond? And obviously, all of the pressure was put on that. I mean, that there were you know it's possible that a city of one million people is Lviv max with the surrounding areas. There could have been between seven and ten people coming through Lviv uh as a city. Million, rather, uh million people coming through Lviv. So that team was completely maxed out. And in the end, uh after a week or two, they evacuated and moved to Krakow, and then that became our kind of crisis center war room from which we recruited a bunch of people and in the end had about a team of 30 responding to the refugee crisis and to the egg crisis that we had. We purchased a bunch of vans. We set up a system whereby because we're the church and we are known as the church, we got all kinds of requests for housing people from Europe. So, you know, a church in Amsterdam said that they could put people in their basement, a church in the Netherlands, you know, wherever, Berlin uh said that you know they had a church member with an extra house or a basement or something like that. So we took that flood of requests and aid coming in as well from I mean, just off the top of my head, France, Spain, UK was a little bit more difficult because their their process was a little harder. But uh I mean Germany, I mean, just name your country, probably we had a request for that.

David Nakhla 10:13

So requests for offers. That's a better way to say it. That's right. Offers, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

So what we had was it what felt like, I don't know what the actual numbers are. After this thing, we'll go back and count. What felt like a million people wanting to take in Ukrainians, what felt like. Yep. And a million Ukrainians wanting to go somewhere. Yep. And then the month of March was basically just one huge Tetris game of trying to figure out number one, who's there, how do you get them there, where the you know, what country provides free transportation, what country what countries don't, uh, what documents you would need to get in that country, which ones you wouldn't, how can you get someone there? Most of the Ukrainians were not did not expect to be in Krakow. Um and here they are, they got they have kids, they have needs. Everybody's looking for just a little slice of normalcy and privacy. Um they'd rather not live in a gym for six months. Uh nobody would. And so that March and into April game of Tetris, before the numbers slowed down and before people kind of generally found where they were, was really an amazing to besides the fact that everybody's working 20 hours a day, it was it was really amazing to see how well, first of all, the church's response in Europe.

David Nakhla 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Come, yeah, we'll find a place for them, you know, that kind of thing. And the need, on the other hand, was saddening and the stories we were here were you know horrendous and all that stuff. And then it's just a matter of, well, how and we're the pinch point, the little tiny pinch point, because there was thousands of pinch points, but uh we were for our people, we were that pinch point for not not all of them, but many of them. And so how do we serve the church in Ukraine, receive these offers and uh and find everybody um a home and get them there and get them settled, and then uh you know, and then check them off our little box. It was a it was um um it it would have been satisfying and fun if it were if not for the reason that we were doing it. I mean it would have been a interesting problem to solve, as it were. It was not an interesting problem to solve. It was a terrible, tragic, horrible thing that we mourn about. Um so that was most of the work. And then parallel to that, it felt like every church in in Europe and the states was saying, How can we help? How can we help? What can we do? You know, what do you what do you need? The states it's a little bit harder because you're not gonna send a van full of water bottles to to Krakow from Idaho or whatever.

SPEAKER_10 12:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

But that was that's not true for you know places in uh in Europe. You can't actually within 24 hours reach Krakow from from a lot of almost all of Europe, right? Then on the other hand, we had people saying, you know, I went outside the hotel where we had most of our people, um, and here's a two vans that show up from Madrid. Vans from Madrid. I didn't know it was possible to drive, but it's possible to drive. We go through France and it's it's not uh anyway, with full of stuff. I mean medicines and and and everything. It's really incredible. So then you're on a parallel way running this, you know, sorting out the you know, who speaks Spanish and knows what this medicine says, you know, that kind of thing. And how can we get it to the right people, who needs it in the country? So we've got vans going out of the country with people in it, and vans going into the country with uh with stuff that we've received in it, and uh trying to you know get that out to most of the places in the city. And as you will recall, in March, it was very unclear how the war was gonna go.

SPEAKER_10 13:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Very unclear. Russian troops came and almost completely encircled Kyiv. And uh there was three, four maybe other fronts that that they were advancing on. You know, as it turns out, Kyiv is still Ukrainian, uh, but every morning I woke up and and checked to see that the U president of Ukraine was alive. Yeah. Because that was the for me at least, that was the that was the kind of the monitoring point to see how this thing was going to go, and it was very unclear, very unclear how it was going. So you had the heaviness of we may lose everything, meaning people, churches, and then you know, a distant third and fourth real estate and you know, all the things that that had been built and everything. And you you're getting all of our pastors' wives and children, you know, coming through your your our pinch point, so to speak, on it on their way to Europe. Odessa Pastor's uh wife is in central Spain with that those two vans that came in that I just mentioned with the stuff. We put the pastor and his kids from the Odessa Church and they rode down to Spain with that van. They're still there now. Um and so it was the logistical puzzle of moving people to places in Europe. It was a logistical puzzle of how to get aid in and where to get it to in Ukraine. Meanwhile, it was this umbrella of Ukraine, what felt like what felt like Ukraine's gonna go away. I mean, this whole thing could just, you know, it could be Russia tomorrow morning. Would it felt like? Well, maybe not all the way to Lviv or to the west, but it it certainly was. Or, I mean, here we are in Krakow, just over the border. Is this gonna come to Poland? And how's this gonna go? And are we are we still are we sitting in the middle of World War III? I mean, it was March was March was was was terrible. Yeah, it's all terrible, but March and April especially. Then May Russian troops were driven out of the north uh back to Belarus and they circled around and came into Danetsk. And it was becoming clear then in May that the the war was really gonna focus on Donetsk, Lugansk oblasts, those two uh republics, or not republics, they're not republics, uh those two um yeah, provinces or or areas in the east. And uh it didn't look like other than Herson, which was terrible, but I think that was in March too. Uh there any larger cities were gonna be taking over in the very near future and so forth. Um and the immediate panic mostly had died down. We figured out processes that we put in place for aid, processes for people, most of the people were already gone, a few even trickling back into places like Kiev and um not too many trickling back actually, but a few here and there. And and then that is basically this it now it is as the war fades from the news cycle in the West, as the need remains or even increases in uh within Ukraine, or how can we on one hand serve our brothers and sisters in Christ in Ukraine by continuing to fund and help, and all of our pastors are functionally unemployed right now because they're not their church budgets are not healthy. And and how can we serve the church in the States, you know, by telling the stories and and so forth. So we started one of the things we did was started a program called Crates for Ukraine, because you can't, like I said, you can't drive from Massachusetts to Krakow, but you can't fly. And so we started a program whereby people churches gather things, kind of like uh Samaritan's Perses Occupy Operation Shoebox on steroids. So you fill a big crate and you send it over to Krakow or and send it with a person, send a dozen of them with one person over to Krakow, and then we'll get that into Ukraine. So that's what we're involved in now mostly.

David Nakhla 17:37

You mentioned Krakow. Um there was a time, what when was it that the team evacuated Lviv to most of the team?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Early Krakow. It was early. Probably two weeks, maybe three weeks after the war began. So it would have been mid-March, if not earlier. And that's Krakow Poland and Lviv's an hour from the border, and then Krakow's two hours into Europe.

David Nakhla 18:00

Okay, okay. And then and now the team uh much of the team is back in Lviv?

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Most of the most of our MTW team is in Lviv. Again, we're speaking on uh on July 20th. It could be you know different tomorrow. But right now, as it stands, it's safe enough for them to be in the country. Uh, but that's the only city where MTW personnel are. Okay. We have not returned anybody to Kyiv or Odessa. However, all of our pastors remain in their cities except for the two cities that are in Russia on Russian control. Uh with the exception of that's not true. The the Harkov Church has returned most mostly to Harkov, the pastor at least, and and uh some folks.

David Nakhla 18:39

I just today saw an article entitled Russia Signals a Long War in light of uh Putin's search for partners abroad. It seems like this is gonna be a long war. Um do you have, you know, what are your current thoughts on ministering kind of now to a church in a country that is in a state of war? And do you have do you have do you have thoughts on that? The the normal ministry, you went from normal ministry to crisis mode, and now we're in a sense almost in a new normal, the the uncertainty of the future of Ukraine that you're talking about. Is even Ukraine gonna exist tomorrow? You know, that's that probably lingers a little bit, but not like it was before. But do you have thoughts on kind of this new state? If this is gonna be a long state of things, what that looks like?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Good question. Uh I would love to hear my pastor brothers and Ukrainian brothers and sisters here talk about this. You know, God has promised that he will build his church even in a place like Ukraine, even in a a situation like it is uh right now in war. Our goal as a mission is to serve alongside with support, love, and uh and help the church uh there. There will be a post-war Ukraine. There will be opportunities for church planting and growth and uh and and development. I think that there's very likely there'll be a great deal of investment into Ukraine after the war is over, but we're not there yet. When we're gonna be there, who knows? It's almost exclusively dependent on one person. And so what does that look like between now and then? Um it looks like you know serving, loving, helping. Uh we have uh physical needs. We're trying to get all of our pastors and churches and little response centers, which they've all turned into, uh funded long term. Get them physically get them the things they need that you can't get in Ukraine for a while. That was gasoline that seems to have abated now a bit, but um, you know, medicines and what are they what do you need? And then, you know, this there will is and will be a need for emotional and and and counseling support here over the long term. We have a generation now living in Ukraine growing up in air raid sirens every day or almost every day. And um when a missile is uh launched from Russia, and air every city sh uh um has their air raid sirens. And there's apps now. You can get an app on your phone uh to see is it is it your city or is it not your city and so where where the missile is coming from, where it's when a missile is launched, all the sirens are regardless of whether it's you're the target. Yeah, that's right, they don't know what the target is, and then when they find out when they find out when where it's probably headed, then you you know you can get a more specific alert on your phone and all this stuff. So anyway, growing up in that, much less the actual physical danger, which a lot of people are in. My pastor Andre Nikolaev talks about the fact that everybody now is a military expert in Ukraine. So he said he can identify if it's an outgoing or an incoming artillery shell or missile in terms of artillery, he can tell if it's a And I don't know the numbers. If it's a 185 or if it's a 120, or if it's a you know, the windows didn't shake this time, that means it's a ninety. I don't know the numbers, but stuff like that. Um and it is um you know, that's not healthy. That's not a healthy place to live. You know, we've seen on the war-torn areas and all the other places in the world, it's just it doesn't produce it's it's not good. It's not good for them, it's not good for anybody. So meeting those emotional needs is uh is an important piece of it. So right now, before we get to that post-war state, yes, which we're praying for and we are we are hoping for and we're looking forward to because all of the Ukrainian refugees in Europe want to go home.

David Nakhla 22:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Nobody wants to live without dad or husband, nobody wants to learn German to go to school this fall, or Dutch, or French, or whatever, Spanish. Uh everybody wants to go back to their life and their house, and and in most cases that's uh that's possible. All of by God's grace, even the two that are in Russian-controlled areas, all of our churches are still standing. No one nothing's been damaged. Um But until that time when we have the reverse Tetris problem of getting everybody back in, well, actually won't be that hard at all because everybody knows where they're going and how to get there.

SPEAKER_10 23:19

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Um we are serving, helping, you know, keeping these guys um physically and keeping all these churches and all of our people who've chosen for one reason or another to stay in their cities um, you know, physically and emotionally healthy and and stable and and funded and and all that stuff. So that's where we are.

David Nakhla 23:41

Do you have any are there any roles right now that you you see that you need to be filled with maybe a long-term, short-term? Yeah um maybe somebody could come for six months, or um, as we have, you know, many people will be listening to this as an opportunity for me to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Great question. Um I I really think the next specific need that we will have is counseling, trauma counseling, and so forth. So many stories, so many terrible stories, so many people waking up with panic attacks, all that stuff. Um in fact, I talked to one person for for whom their city is safe-ish. In terms of Ukraine, it's safe. Um it's not Willow Grove, but it's not it's safe. And they couldn't bring themselves to go back even to that city because of the because of the fear they felt and and uh and so forth. So I think um uh you know, two-week trips, even with translators or those or with those who speak English, having some trauma-informed folks come and speak and and and either in a large group or in a small group or in one-on-one or whatever, speak to folks, I think is gonna be immensely helpful. Um in terms of aid, you know, we're doing everything mostly through our churches there. We as uh MTW missionaries aren't aren't moving into um we're not going in artillery range, put it that way. So so we don't have not allowed to, right?

David Nakhla 25:13

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

So we don't have a we don't have a great need for people to go into the country right now. This crates program, I think it's cratesforukraine.com or org, um is running through the end of the summer, and then we are trying to determine what will be the needs this fall. How can we help and how can we serve as a Western church um the folks in Ukraine this fall?

David Nakhla 25:37

So you've seen a decrease in your giving?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah. This is a war and it is gonna go on, and we need to uh you know do do some planning and think, okay, three years from now, yeah, if this if we're still in a Ukraine's a no-fly zone, uh it's living off of foreign aid, and all of our passengers are still running their shelters, and we how could we provide for our folks long term in in some scenarios long long term so that we can continue to move forward so that in 12 months we don't say, hey guys, listen, you know, we we won't have any more and so forth. So we've tried to make some decisions. We spent a great deal of money in the in March and April. The numbers are are are down now, but still we need to figure out a rate in which we can sustain this for for a long term. So that was a long answer to a short question. Yes. That combined with, you know, we're not getting a million dollars a day, you know, we're getting more like a thousand dollars a day. So how do we with that no with those numbers going down and with our commitment staying the same, how's this gonna work? How long could this work? You know, what kind of things do we want to do for the denomination? Right now it's all physical support. Ideally, we'd love to use some of this money for post-war church planting and uh and and stuff like that, and as well as as well as trauma stuff, um, you know, not just buying water bottles and whatever generators for people, but um and it's gonna and and in my opinion it's gonna be a long winter in Ukraine, a long winter, a long cold winter. I think I think it's very likely that Russia will shut off the gas to the country, the natural gas. Um I think it's likely in critical moments that they'll that they'll um that they'll attack and and blow up um electric stations. Um and all of our pastors are now buying kerosene heaters and wood furnaces because they're experiencing they're they're expecting the same thing. So it's a good thing to do what we did in March and April. It's the right thing, it's you know, being faithful, all that stuff. Next March and April, or next January through April, is gonna be pretty key too. Uh and then maybe the next one beyond that, I don't know. But it's gonna be a dark, it's gonna be cold and dark in Ukraine this winter, and there's gonna be lots of needs. And so we're trying to think through how to pre-plan now uh for that, yeah, so that our folks, uh the folks who are in their cities, uh stay warm and fed. So I'm more worried about this winter than anything else right now. Uh I mean all the stuff that we're doing right now is great. Crates is crates for Ukraine's wonderful, a hundred churches, thousand crates, whatever it is, more than that, probably. Uh, and that's all gonna be great and useful and and everything, but you know, there's gonna be you can't run a city without heat.

SPEAKER_04 28:26

Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

That's a big deal. It's really that's that's the that's my number one concern right now. That's what I'm not losing sleep over what I'm not losing sleep anymore over the fact that Russia's gonna take over Ukraine or that obviously a lot of people are a lot of soldiers are dying, some of our seminary students and and church members are s are serving, a lot of them are, stuff like that. So I'm very worried about all that stuff. But what makes me lose sleep is how we're gonna make through the winter.

David Nakhla 28:53

I guess that's where in my mind, you know, as I look at as I look at the situation from war, you know, I just I don't think the Ukrainians are gonna give up. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, everything to lose, and now that they're being armed, you know, the more that the West is army arming them, from that standpoint, they're not gonna give up.

SPEAKER_10 29:15

Yeah.

David Nakhla 29:16

Putin is clearly not gonna give up anytime soon. Right. And so I look at it and I'm just like, this is gonna be a lot.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

It is, it is.

David Nakhla 29:24

So I think it's to a certain extent getting to the point of being able to assess that is helpful and then come to you, you know what I mean, as much as everybody would love for it to be over soon. It's just like realistically, or you can pray for hope for the best, plan for the worst. And I guess that's maybe the question is as you plan for the worst, you know, how how how do we do that? What does that look like? And that's where I mean, I think like you have me thinking like, how do we how do we send heaters?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

How do we, you know, like that may be the next that may be crates for Ukraine runs through September 1st. That may be Christ for Ukraine 2.0 or whatever, you know, heaters for Ukraine, whatever. Um that may be the next uh the next place where we are. I don't know. Possible.

David Nakhla 30:16

I think that the inconvenient right now is for for us to do what we can do with the funds in in line with the things that you guys are asking for. So Craig's for Ukraine seems like a great program. How can we mobilize that? I mean in the survey trip I did, there just is not a lot of opportunities. Us sending a big pile of money to let's say Lithuania would basically swamp, could easily swamp what the local troops do. It's like, why would we do that? Like what they do, what they're doing, and they're not asking for it. And so if we go get involved, could easily dwarf what they're doing, and who wants to do that? And so, and that's where I think what makes the most sense is is contribute to what you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Well, we have a connection, obviously. We have a connection, you guys have a connection there, and it's very much in line with with both of our theologies and our churches and so forth.

David Nakhla 31:06

So one of the one of the guys on the committee who's been interacting a bunch with those who are very involved with crazy ukraine is he's in the hospital equipment world. You know, he's like looking at looking at these wound back.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yeah, yeah, those things are helpful. Oh, those are amazing.

David Nakhla 31:19

But he's also cut to shipping stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah.

David Nakhla 31:22

Shipping stuff all over the world. And so we start thinking about you know filling a container with with heaters, or what is it that you know that they could use, or is there gonna be food issues during the during the winter, and what are sustainable low heat consumption MRE type of foods so people can survive the winter? Because I think realistically this is gonna go on in Russia. Russia's got their hand on the switch.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

No, I think a couple things. Number one, that there's a possibility that the Russian economy may not just be able to keep up with with the expenditure and what they're doing in Ukraine and and all the sanctions and stuff. Sanctions may hit at their worst starting in September. So what what is the fall gonna look like for Russia is as valid of a question as what is the fall gonna look like for Ukraine. We'll see where that goes. But on the other on the food thing, we have got a company in Texas that makes flour that turns you can bake it into bread or whatever, something like that. And it's a it's a high protein, okay, a high calorie thing, and we're packaging those up and we're gonna hand them out. So they're we're working on that on that kind of front as well. But the winter and then just generally long term, how does this work?

David Nakhla 32:29

So, brother, how can we be specifically praying for the labors of the MTW team in Ukraine?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, thank you. You know, physical and spiritual and emotional, that that kind of level. I think the you know, if you put it in those three categories, physically, outside of Lviv team, and they have they are on and off outside of the country, everybody is displaced. All of our team members are displaced. The Odessa team is is going to Romania, they're in a city called Brashov, they are responding um to the need and receiving people there. The Odessa team is scattered all over, uh, or rather, the Kyiv team is scattered all over. Our seminary is running online. Um right now, seminary building is still standing in Kyiv. And the um you know, we share in the suffering to some extent at least of the of all the other Ukrainian folks who are displaced. So that physical kind of we want to go home to um thing we're feeling. Um spiritually, uh I'll speak for myself, it's it's so hard. I mean, it's really, really hard. So I think spiritual encouragement in the face of injustice, in the face of uh hatred and war and uh and all this stuff, that is uh I think of paramount importance. Our theology reminds us that I just said it all depends on one man. Uh uh that's obviously not true. It doesn't depend on one man, it depends on God. Um so our this our understanding of sovereignty, our understanding of providence, all need we need to be reminded of that often, I think. All of us, uh as missionaries and church members and and so forth, but especially in a situation like this, where it does feel like it can feel at times like it is dependent on one man, yeah, but it's not. And then emotionally uh I think the you know, all of us have heard so many tragic and terrible stories, so many, um, and experienced so many tragic and terrible things um that I think emotionally thinking this through, working this through and aside of all those three things, uh you know, we're still there and desire to serve. Uh still, you know, running uh the Christ for Ukraine program, uh funding the churches, you know, making calls and all and all that stuff. So yeah, that we would you just mentioned a second ago that this uh it's likely this war will go on for a little while. Our desire is to do what we're doing, to serve and love um and come alongside for as long as it takes. And um that we would be able to do that. Endurance. Uh that we would be able to have endurance to be able to be able to do that. So those are the things that come to mind. I mean it's a it's a it's been really I've been really thankful and it's been a privilege to see how the the team has come together and how the churches come together to to respond to this. It's just as I mentioned earlier. If the circumstances weren't so tragic, if the injustice wasn't so blatant, if uh the future wasn't so dim, it would be a really fun thing to do this and work together on everybody. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's uh it's it's war, and war is um terrible. Yeah. Yeah.

David Nakhla 35:53

Yeah. The team there did not go to to serve in a war environment. And and I can say though that, you know, what from just the very limited perspective I had, it was it was very impressive to see um how the Lord enabled you guys to organize to serve in lots of different ways. You know, Mar it sounds like yeah, March and April were crazy, and yet you guys had to figure figure it out. And how we how could we serve in this crazy Tetris of getting, you know, lining up the people who needed to get someplace with the people who were willing to welcome them. And it's been wonderful to see see how the Lord's working through that, and but it it is everybody's continued prayer that this that the Lord would bring bring the suffering and this war to to an end soon.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Amen. Amen. I I like I said before, there will be a post-war Ukraine. Yep, Ukraine is in a unique position in Eastern Europe to be a a light that other places either can't or aren't. Um our political environment is different, our freedom of religion is Ukraine is the most religiously free country in Eastern Europe, in the Russian-speaking world at least. And so our ability with our seminary, with our library at the seminary, with all with all that stuff, to be able to speak into and send missionaries to, et cetera, et cetera, to countries Russia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, all those guys, is a great thing. My hope and prayer is that we'd be able to grow the church in Ukraine post-war and establish our position in Eastern Europe as kind of a ascending agency, or not agency, ascending country of missionaries and and books and publishing stuff and all that stuff into uh into into the rest of Eastern Europe. So that's the hope.

David Nakhla 37:45

It feels a little dim right now, but that is the that is the well you can be encouraged to be reminded that through the Ukrainian diaspora, the impact of the work that you've been doing in Ukraine for all these years in the lives of Ukrainians is being spread throughout all of uh much of a secular Europe. Um and uh and so you know maybe this is one way that God will be you know breathing new life into the churches all throughout Europe. East and west, that's true. East and west.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

So that's true.

David Nakhla 38:17

Well, thank you, John, for taking the time to to share with us. It's certainly instructive to me and helpful for me as I as I've come up to speed with um all that's transpired uh in in a lot of ways far away and yet uh very close to us uh as well. And and um may he continue to give you guidance, particularly in your in your leadership role with this team, and uh for for t such a time as this, um he's he's raised you up and uh hopefully you're encouraged in the work that that he's set before you.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Amen. Amen. Thank you.

David Nakhla 38:56

In addition to this informative update on Ukraine from John Heidi, the MTW Ukraine Country Director, I would like you to hear directly from a refugee family describing their escape from Mariupol in March of this year. You might recall that Mariupol was a city where the Russians were closing in tighter and tighter until all that was left were about 1,000 Ukrainian soldiers pulled up in a steel factory. The following was recorded while I was traveling through Eastern Europe back in May, visiting the various churches ministering to Ukrainian refugees. This interview takes place in the country of Lithuania, where this family has settled. Lithuania is the southernmost of the Baltic countries. It sits just north of Poland and west of Belarus. My traveling companion Rich Bowt and I were sitting with world witness missionary Frank Vendalen. He's the New Zealand accent you'll hear. The first voice you will hear is that of a young Ukrainian woman in her early twenties. She's able to speak English. You will also hear the voice of a Ukrainian mother and her son. He's about twenty years old. Since she does not speak English, you will also hear her story through a translator, one of the church members in Lithuania. It's possibly hard to follow all the threads of the conversation, but if you're able to listen to the end, you will hear some powerful testimonies of God's mercy and grace as he carried these individuals hundreds of miles through hostile territory to Lithuania, where they are being cared for by God's people there. This story represents just one of thousands of such stories of survival that occurred since February 24, 2022.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

What day did you come to Lithuania? When did you come to Lithuania?

SPEAKER_06 40:36

Um on the 5th of May.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

Fifth and 5th of May.

SPEAKER_08 40:41

They went uh different ways to see.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

Like 10 days ago?

SPEAKER_08 40:47

She came.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Okay, she came, okay.

SPEAKER_08 40:49

And Nadi and Eliadi came earlier.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Okay. So how did you come here?

SPEAKER_06 40:57

I'm also from Mariupol.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Yeah, but how did you come? Did you fly out? You didn't fly at all.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

I didn't fly bus.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

You came by Basana.

SPEAKER_06 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Can you tell us your story about leaving Mariupol?

SPEAKER_06 41:08

Yeah, so I studied my journal from the 26th of April, so and from Mariupol I need to pass like uh to go through this filtration where I checkpoints. Yeah, checkpoint, thank you. Where um these uh guys need to check me, my phones, my documents, and uh um with uh have this uh this document I can leave my city and go to next and after that I with my parents stay at village. So in village my father has um a house of his parents and my parents uh lived here and uh also in this period of time um our friends from Moscow they come into us uh and take me with them to Moscow and after Moscow I uh buy a ticket for a bus and uh this bus from Moscow, I'm from Latvia. Now I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Wait a minute, you went to Moscow?

SPEAKER_06 42:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Where was your village from your father?

SPEAKER_06 42:25

Um it's the name Kamenka. So it's near to Mariupol.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Okay. And it was on the Russian side of uh yes, it's uh Donetsk region. The Donetsk region.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

What date did you leave Mariupol?

SPEAKER_06 42:43

Uh on the 26th of April. April, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Well, right. Now Mariupol was surrounded by the Russians, huh? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

So you had to go through the Russians to what was that process? How difficult was that to get out?

SPEAKER_08 43:01

Did they let you go with papers and you wait to Mariupol?

SPEAKER_06 43:09

Yes, I have uh difficult checkpoint uh from Mariupol because uh they check me uh who might body and uh for tattoos uh or maybe any if I heard from uh guns. Yeah and uh they also check everything in my phone, my photos, and they asked me asked me about uh why I have photo of uh American flag and Ukraine. It was just you went at university of my friend, and I don't know why it was but uh they just uh what were the tattoos?

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Did you say? Yeah, why did they check for tattoos?

SPEAKER_06 43:58

Uh because we have um In Mariupol, Azov and they tattoos.

SPEAKER_07 44:04

They have the Azov group, okay.

SPEAKER_06 44:06

Yes, and uh if uh I would from here they they would have that would have been bad. So it is one special tattoo for Azov? Um not one, a lot. A lot? So they also have tattoos on the feet, legs?

SPEAKER_08 44:22

What's the name of it? Of this factory? As a battalion, it's a group of soldiers that are uh It is big factory in which they are staying Ukrainian uh soldiers and they are fighting and they are right now very surrounded by Russians.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

I thought they've all evacuated now, no?

SPEAKER_08 44:42

They're not only civilians.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

Okay, so still there?

David Nakhla 44:48

So the Russians were uh would allow you to pass through if you were not if you did not look like a soldier.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Yeah.

David Nakhla 44:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:56

And so then when you got into the Russian area, you went on to Moscow. And then you came to Latvian.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

But you with your father to or your or you just went alone?

SPEAKER_06 45:10

I'm alone.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Well you went alone out of Mariupol as well?

SPEAKER_06 45:15

No, I was met friends or parents uh from Mariupol to this near village where we were together, but uh after that uh I I was with uh friends of my mother that uh they took me to Moscow and after that I was alone go by bus, went by bus.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Were you scared doing all of that? Frightened? Were you afraid?

SPEAKER_04 45:44

You're very brave.

SPEAKER_08 46:14

Yeah, oh and uh it's a shame.

SPEAKER_07 46:21

Well you can tell Ilya, I'm glad you're here and uh I'm sure your mom's glad you're here too.

SPEAKER_08 46:26

So we are glad that you're here someone chilling several days before going out from Mariupolis, they were trying to repair their car. And so as I told Nider has two sons, and another one. And the car was without uh glasses, windows, windows.

SPEAKER_09 46:56

Uh machine there was no colosso wheels with one wheel.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

I can show my photo.

SPEAKER_09 47:06

He has a photo. Photo poker. I need three dynamic colossa but stream.

SPEAKER_08 47:16

They were taking wheels from other cars and they were trying to put them into this one.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

It's work. It's a whole bullet.

SPEAKER_09 47:28

Three dynamically colossa.

SPEAKER_08 47:35

Their hands were all muddy because of this job of preparation. And then some cars and went out from the yard of the house. They were living in the house of 10 floors.

SPEAKER_11 47:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 48:06

And when they were moving through the streets of the center, they were very speedy because all the time they were belly flaggy we visualize. They didn't knew what to do and they were trying to get white flags.

SPEAKER_11 48:31

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 48:32

And uh she's telling that if the the car was with white flag, they were shooting from the back. If they would not have this white flag, Russians would not let in. So it was a big deal how to see to decide what to do. Marta 1 May they started the electronics. For ten days to get into this checkpoint filtration de process in these checkpoints. They were also looked very carefully. They had to take off their clothes. Um they were looking at Nadia's shoulders, maybe she could shoot good. Also they had to took everything from their phones. So almost everything was um checked and um uh they were people asking a lot of questions. Intervenir So by these uh custom people they were all the time question questionated a lot about everything. Come on, you know, griven by no obligation and uh in this place already Russian uh money were on, not uh Ukrainian. And they had only Ukraine money, griven us. And stop we delight, we pa minute. Wapteku they could and it was very hard to change the money into Russian one, so Ilya was going with the cho soldiers asking them to pay instead of them and such way he got Russian money.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

In machine.

SPEAKER_08 51:13

They had to go to drugstore because they had some illnesses, and also they had to buy some other stuff for the car to fix it, to move on. That's why they needed this money. And then they were driving to Rostov. It's in Russia, such as sin. And in Rostov, the oldest brother of Elia, the oldest son of Nadia, he stayed because he was thinking to stay in Russia because he has a girlfriend in Russia. And then all the time they were sleeping in the car and they were trying to fix a car just to for moving Russia. And they went to the shop in Russia and people gave three windows for a car without any payment. And then they were trying to make a car better for further going. And the service when they get to know that these people are from Mariupolis, they fixed not everything in a car, but they fixed only a few things just to keep going for a car. And it was done for it for free.

SPEAKER_04 53:09

For free.

SPEAKER_08 53:12

So the Russians were quite helpful. Uh yeah, one more. Ordinary people were helping, but not the government.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Yeah, that's a good distinction.

SPEAKER_08 53:28

And then they had to drive 800 kilometers to Georgia to Kastan. And uh through the night they did it, and with them also was uh a friend of Ilia who had no documents and a passport and he was not let in let out. He was not we post. The Russians didn't didn't let him out from Russia.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

No two passport was still not document of the.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Now he was renewing his passport.

SPEAKER_08 54:38

Yes, yes, and that it was the reason he was not having. And Ilya had passport, but uh it was not valid, it was finished already.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

But he had least had a passport. Yeah, good. So can you get a Lithuanian passport now or you'll get a Ukrainian passport?

SPEAKER_08 54:59

He won't get.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Well get.

SPEAKER_08 55:00

But you know, because of the war, it was uh the making of uh Ukrainian passport was stopped and only right now they renewed it. Yes?

SPEAKER_03 55:10

Yeah, you know where you buy the passport.

SPEAKER_08 55:13

Ah, I mean oh, so it is not uh new making passports, but it is extend extension.

SPEAKER_04 55:23

That's what we're making. So what became of the friend? Do they still have contact with him? He got left in Russia?

SPEAKER_08 55:30

So no, I got told that uh he's leaving Russia also and he's coming to Lithuania also as born.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

So electrons in your mark of the countries.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

So they will issue you a new one or a renewed one, or will they just allow that to be used?

SPEAKER_08 55:50

Expand somehow. Somehow. He was in in uh Vilnius in uh Ukraine embassy and um they will do something. Because right now it seems that he is without any document.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

In uh in Ukraine and maybe Lithuania, does everybody have a passport? Uh in in the United States, many people do not have passports. Really? Yeah, because many people never leave.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

There are many everybody has a driver's license but not a passport.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Everybody has one.

SPEAKER_08 56:30

In Syria it's also that we we have to have this document. He's telling that it is new thing in Ukraine. It appeared several years ago, that in electronics, something you have, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 56:50

Yeah, and they scan it. Take a code.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

They were part of a convoy when they left for people. Really? Several cars.

SPEAKER_08 56:58

Uh we все время в CM machine. It's like the checkpoint. They were going in this convoy just until checkpoint.

SPEAKER_04 57:10

Okay. And then after the checkpoint they were going different different ways.

SPEAKER_08 57:22

Yeah, they were thinking that it would be um more safer to go along.

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Oh okay, yeah, that makes sense. Were there a lot of people going through Russia to leave or were they mostly going through Ukraine?

SPEAKER_04 57:38

I don't know. Okay. I mean this convoy was all uh obviously going, I mean they were clearly going all through Russia.

SPEAKER_09 57:57

Fake of zone corridors.

SPEAKER_08 58:08

You know what I mean? Uh and she's telling that for example it was a news that it is free way to go from Birdansk to Zaporoz. And the buses with children and women were going through this way and all of them they were shooted, killed. And uh it was announced that it is a safe free corridor. So a lot of people were afraid to go to Ukrainian side because of this fake news. They didn't knew the way how to go to this side. That's why most of them they were going to Russian side. Also it was an announcement that for example one day from 11 until evening you can go freely until factory, Azopstar. And some people believed that it is possible to get out from the basements. And it was told that if you have a car you can go with a car, if you don't have a car, you can go by foot. And from 11 o'clock they could move. So now they're still in that five bus stops from their house at 11:30 started the shooting, and all the people were killed who were going on the street. So they didn't believe any news they were getting, you know, because of these examples.

SPEAKER_09 59:56

Now possibly stop the zelony corridor and uh they were told that it's better not to believe all these news about safe corridors.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:11

And she said that in Mariupol there were no accidents. No this signs that something will happen. She's saying that for example they were sleeping and uh the bombing was starting without any uh warning.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:34

And yeah, he's telling that maybe they had a kind of timetable of shooting because it was not uh at once the whole town, but uh one minute in one uh place of the town, uh after some time another one, and uh he's telling that you during the night there were no shoots at the day. And at the time of night they were not allowed to go out into the streets because it was uh curvy. Yes, and uh Ukrainian uh people were shooting also because of uh nobody knew who who is doing this. Uh and uh at the daytime there were a lot of food, so and uh at the daytime they had to get and uh water and all stuff what they needed for surviving. And the impossible to get water and uh bread. They were collecting the snow, which was not white, but black because of everything, and they were boiling it to make good water to drink and to prepare the food.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

Did you have gas to boil the water costure? Or wood.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:10

They were making a fireplace on the street without any gas, just rookie chork, it's so chork and so. She's telling that and hands and face were black because of this. Her socks were how to say as a second skin. She because of this when she was not washing herself and it was even hard.

SPEAKER_09 1:02:46

Grazie.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:03

Well, they're telling me that they are very thankful to us so that we took them, that we found a place where to live. The family is broken, the house is bombed, and you have to leave your country. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Yeah, that's a challenge. But we're glad you're here with us. Yeah. Glad to get to know you guys. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

Yeah. Pray that the Lord will lead you in the next steps.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

They also thank you. Father, we thank you that we're good to us, that you look after us, and we thank you for this family. We pray for what we call them, continue to be with them. Your great blessing as they settle down here in Lithuania. We pray for their own country of Ukraine. And pray, Father, that you would bring peace to that land, and you bring once again the freedoms that they used to enjoy. We thank you that you hear our prayers, that you care for us, and you protect us and provide us for us, and so we depend completely upon you, knowing, as we've just heard, that everything can be taken away from us in a very short time. So help us to trust in you and what you give us, the life that you give us, the peace and just your presence with us. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.

David Nakhla 1:05:00

Well, thank you for sticking with us to the end of this long podcast. Please continue to pray for the people of Ukraine, for missionaries and others that serve in the displaced, and that the war would end so that contributions towards the Ukraine Crisis Fund can be made at give.opc.org. If you go to that page, you can click on Diagonal Ministry and you will find the Ukraine Crisis Fund. Finally, I would like to acknowledge the work of the producer and editor of the Reformed Deacon Podcast, Trish Dugan, who does so much work behind the scenes to make this podcast possible. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.