SPEAKER_01 0:00

It is the responsibility of the session to fulfill that role and have our eyes open to the diaconal needs. We learned as we went, and it was not always easy, and we felt we felt inadequate at times, but it was notable how God, from the first time we met in the first church, sent us the son of a long-term OP deacon from the San Diego area, and he shared his father's deacon's heart. It was unbelievable how his presence alone was so encouraging and unifying in the congregation.

David Nakhla 0:46

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Knockla. I serve as the administrator for the OPC's Committee on Diaconal Ministries. In recent years, I began to wonder why when we church plant in the OPC, we are sure to have a provisional session, but less intentional about the concept of a provisional diaconate. We agreed it would be good to have a discussion on this topic. And as such, we've invited those who might shed some light on this important subject. First, we're blessed to have my friend and colleague John Shaw with us today. John is completing 10 years of service as the general secretary of the OPC's Committee on Home Missions and Church Extension. He previously had experience as a church planter himself, besides being part of more than one church plant during his growing up years. Welcome to the program, John.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

David's thanks so much for the invitation. You know this is a topic that's that's dear to my heart. I'm excited to consider it together.

David Nakhla 2:01

Super. Our second guest is Tyler Dietrich, who's was serving as the church planter at Light of the Nations OPC in Dayton, Ohio. Why I say was serving because they have recently particularized, which is wonderful. I was able to get to know Tyler and his wife a bit when we worshiped together during his seminary years. It's good to see you, Tyler. Welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Thank you, David. I feel like I'm still a church planter at heart. So happy to contribute.

David Nakhla 2:29

Yeah, fantastic. And finally, we have OP elder Kurt Oliver with us. Now I've known Kurt for I can't believe it, almost 40 years. Uh, we met on a on a backpacking, one of Dave Winslow's backpacking trips in 1986, my first trip, actually.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

We were five years old.

David Nakhla 2:51

Yeah, exactly. How's that possible? Kurt has served as an elder for many decades in those years, and uh he's been part of a number of overseeing sessions. So he too has things to add to the discussion. Uh, he's currently serving on the session of his home church, Westminster OPC, in Westminster, California, where in that capacity he continues to help oversee uh church plant resurrection OPC. Welcome. Thank you for joining us, Kurt.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Well, thank you, Dave. I I know that you have experienced some resistance when you invited me on this. I don't know if I'm going to be able to add much, but here we are. Thanks so much for the opportunity.

David Nakhla 3:29

Thank you for submitting to the coercion. So, John, uh, would you be willing to get us started by explaining uh briefly about how church plant planting works in the OBC and the importance of an overseeing session?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Uh yeah, David, I'd be happy to do that. I was trying to think about how to do it briefly. I think I know how to do that, but we often talk about, and in fact, we have this in our at the very beginning in the introduction to our church planting manual, about two things that define how we do church planting. Uh, we're Presbyterian and we're reformed. And the manual goes on to say that means we are that our church plants work differently and they think differently. Uh, the reformed is obviously the think differently. It has to do with our theology, uh, that we're very clear from the beginning about how we understand the scriptures and we should be using our confession and our catechisms. Uh, but then when we talk about how our church plants work differently, we're talking about planting intentionally Presbyterian churches. I think sometimes when we hear Presbyterian, we think about baptism and mode of baptism, and that's actually not the main point. The main point of uh Presbyterian church is how it's ruled. It's ruled not just by a pastor or not just by one elder, it's ruled by a group of pastors and elders, uh plurality of elders. And we believe that's what the Bible teaches. We believe it's the best thing for the church, and therefore the best thing for church plants and the best thing for the uh the sheep that are served by our churches. And so our goal from day one is that when we receive a mission work, uh it has a group of elders that oversee it. In fact, often our church plants have a group of elders before they have a church planter. And that does uh look a little bit different than most church planting and other Bible-believing churches. Uh, there's a sense in which church planting can often be driven by one gifted, um, talented church planter that God's appointed for that work, and he kind of leads the whole thing. Uh, but but we believe that it's significant that a that a church plant is ruled by a group of of pastors and elders, a plurality, uh, that the church planter submits to that group. He's not just on his own, and that the church plant itself learns from day one what it means to submit to a session. And so for us, it's it's significant that from the very beginning, as soon as the mission works received, it has elders. And that does change how our church plants function. We think it's a good thing because it's what the Bible teaches, and so we think it's God's design for both young churches and old churches.

David Nakhla 6:15

Oh, that's that's great, super helpful. And just a quick follow-up on that. And as we mentioned, uh Tyler's uh church recently particularized, what's required for a an OP church plant to actually, as we call it, particularize?

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, so when a church plant starts, we're usually uh in some way constructing a session. So it's elders and pastors from other places in the presbytery. You know, in Tyler's case, they were close by, but it was a church up the road. Uh when a church plant becomes an established, particularized church, uh, they're electing and then the presenter is ordaining elders from that group. And so now they have their own elders who've been raised up within uh the group, and that's that's a positive, important step to see those men identified in the church and and trained and ready to serve. So it is a transition, but it's also why we want to start with elders. We don't want that to be a a shocking transition where you know they were submitting to a church planter, now they're submitting to a session. It's just a different session. And so hopefully they've been prepared for that as well, even in the the stage of church planting.

David Nakhla 7:27

How would diaconal needs be overseen in a church plant?

SPEAKER_02 7:33

So this is true in an established church as well. If there aren't deacons, the session has some kind of responsibility for the whole work of a cart local congregation. And so, in some way, the elders are overseeing the diaconal work. Uh, we'll probably talk later in this podcast, even about ways to do that in the early stages if there aren't deacons. But in some way, the elders from the beginning have to be think, should be thinking about mercy ministry, uh caring for the needs inside and outside. There's even, I think, a significant evangelistic component to mercy ministry. And at the front end, the session is trying to think carefully and creatively about how to do that with uh the people and the gifts that are already there.

David Nakhla 8:18

Yeah, good. Thank you. Tyler, um, as a young pastor, uh earnestly engaged in in establishing your congregation, would you talk about the setting in which you have now planted this church? And of course, without getting too specific, maybe explain the diagonal types of needs your church has faced in its planting years.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah, of course. I'm always happy to talk about our plant, our church and how it was planted, how it got going, and uh what it looks like now on the side of particularization actually looks a whole lot like what it looked like before you know that formally happened. So our setting is in urban downtown Dayton, Ohio. Uh, and you know, you could picture driving down East Third Street and you roll up on uh a very large church building that just kind of looms over the landscape. And that's our church, that's that's our building, at least. And uh what you have on the left of it is a big pawn shop, and to the right of it is a really good Mexican restaurant. And actually, if you kind of look at that landscape, it actually says a lot about the setting and then the sort of types of needs. So, you know, along with that pawn shop, and one time I was talking with the pawn shop owner, and he said that most of what they do is just hold um items for people who are desperately trying to have a cash reserve for something or another. And so there is a lot of poverty in Dayton, there's a lot of drugs in Dayton. And then of course, we're right on a very refugee heavy corridor of Dayton. And so the Spanish-speaking folks that run the Mexican restaurant, it's not an outlier to the community. There's a lot of refugees from different ethnicities and different places. And so the other interesting thing about where we're at is we're actually at a bus stop. So you can pull up on this scene, and we our church building is the bus stop. So all sorts of people, all of this feeds into kind of what you'd see our needs popping up on. It's not a surprise that our typical needs are things like high volume number of calls from people who see our building, see our website, and call, call the church number asking for money. Um and you'll also see a lot of homelessness, um, not necessarily asking for help, but clearly a lot of people needing help and demonstrating very tangibly mental illness, alcoholism, even on our property, even on our doorstep. And then a very different kind of need, but it's it's there as well, is the refugees that um most of them can't can barely speak any English. And um, but they need places to stay, they need places to work. Um, and so these are some of the needs that have popped up alongside of your typical expectation, like a family that's moving or a family that needs meals because they're sick. And so uh that's that's kind of what our diacritical needs have looked like, if that gives you a picture.

David Nakhla 11:09

Yeah, and just a quick follow-up. How was it that you were able to meet those needs, especially in those in your early years of you freshly out of seminary, just got ordained, here you are, you're church planting in this urban setting, and then you all of a sudden are faced, you know, not with with all the typical church planting needs, but also significant diaconal needs. How did that transpire for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, it's amazing how the Lord has provided because you you look at all this and it's staggering. And one thing I would say is uh slow and steady, my friend. I mean, we needed for our own sanity to be aware that we could not meet all of this on day one. And uh, you know, we're not the whole body of Christ. There's there's churches all around us that are doing different things. And so we asked the question, what can we do right now with who we have? And um, so we started with uh an English as a second language ministry, and uh we had a deacon on loan who came and helped us out, and then we got a second deacon on loan who had some experience in the juvenile court system in the past, so he knew how to work with people who who were in an urban environment. So yeah, we we started with what we were given, and then those brothers became deacons over time, but we we had to start and say there's we can't do everything. Uh so what can we do well? And so we started with that.

David Nakhla 12:32

Super. Oh, I like that the deacon on loan. We'll have to come back to that. That's that's great. Yeah, thanks for suggesting that. Kurt, let's turn to you. Uh, one of the reasons you're finding yourself on this podcast is that you recently shared with me that the three plants you've been connected with looked the same on paper, same session, same flavor from the outset, but they each had very different significant diaconal ministry opportunities. So I was hoping that you could maybe paint the picture a little bit uh for our audience uh as best you can of what you saw firsthand in all these different church plants.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

The first church we worked with became the mother church of the other two, and it spun out the second work. And so they looked very much the same at first. The first work uh it gave the impression of a stable young church, middle class families. Then things started to shift as the gospel was was communicated, as outreach was happening, and we added new people, a new couple joined uh who were not familiar or not very familiar with the way the a Presbyterian church would work, especially one in a community center, which was sort of new to them. And then the Lord sent them an infant, and that that child was autistic, severely hindered from normal life, and it caused them a great deal of concern in how they should participate in worship, for instance. We didn't have like a cry room in a community center. We they were always in the the same room as everyone else, and and the noises were a worry for them. And so the church had to had to rally around them, and that was very good, but it was not obvious to us on the one hand, how to best minister to them and who should best minister to them. Another man who had been converted in the context of the church plant has been very joyful in his faith, he's a very faithful man. It came about that he he was living in his car, he he was not not at first, but things changed. He he was not making that very well known. He didn't realize that there was a diaconal aspect to how he could be helped, and we didn't know that the need was there. We were only barely aware of it in in his case, and there were other um diaconal needs that came up that you know, we we the session was two ministers and two seasoned elders, and none of the four of us had had specific ordained diaconal background. Dave Crum had served 25 years in Tijuana, so you can imagine that that he had a um a lot of experience, but but he had not ever been served, he had never served in the office of the deacon, and Jason and I had not either. But we do know, like John was saying, it is the responsibility of the session to fulfill that role and have our eyes open to the diaconal needs. We learned as we went, and it was not always easy, and we felt we felt inadequate at times, but it was notable how God, from the first time we met in the first church, sent us the son of a long-term OP deacon from the San Diego area, and he shared his father's deacon's heart. It was unbelievable how his presence alone was so encouraging and unifying in the congregation. He was one of those deacons, and he he is now serving as a deacon. He's one of those deacons who he assumed behind the scenes duties, like setup and teardown in the community center, and like reaching out to the families. How can I help you? Where do you have needs? Are you moving? I'll help you do that, etc. From the very beginning, we were so grateful for him. Uh, you probably know him, that's Solomon. Oh, yeah. He's been such a good brother. The second work, you know, they we worship in a rented worship facility, and so there's no need for setup or teardown. But from the beginning, God provided um an ordained deacon from a local PCA church who had had many years' experience as a deacon. Well, this church has much broader spectrum of ages from infancy to the very elderly. And this deacon's heart for the entire spectrum of the congregation has been noticed from the beginning. He has been very conscientious to make sure that if he sees a need, he communicated it to the elders. Now, the pastor there has done a great job from the beginning of staying in close contact, for instance, with a woman who anticipates being widowed very soon. And her financial needs, her husband is in a long-term care facility, which is very expensive, and her financial resources are dwindling quickly. The pastor is discreetly kept in contact with her. It is not something that we as a congregation were able to help with. The needs were just would have overwhelmed us as it overwhelmed her. But we have been able to come alongside at least to comfort her and to talk with her about different things and provide wisdom and counsel. And so that's been helpful. But it's it's a there are diaconal challenges there that are beyond a church plant. But also, you know, we were joined as in membership by a woman who suffers from a debilitating disease and has never been present with us for worship because she she's limited, she's homebound, often bedridden. But she has been in worship with us every Sunday since she came along. And she's a joyful member and has been a great support to us in prayer and in encouragement. Well, the opportunity arose to help her purchase a piece of equipment that could really increase her mobility. It was a little bit beyond what we had in our checkbook. We shared with the Presbytery Diaconal Committee that we had this need and asked, could they help us to do that? And that committee picked up the entire cost of that piece of equipment and was able to provide that for her. And it really did encourage her and the whole congregation, and especially, of course, to her. In that work, the elders would see a variety of needs, and often it was that deacon who would take one of us aside and say, You should look into the situation with if there's anything I can do, I'd love to help. When they particularized, he resisted becoming a deacon in the congregation because he has serious health problems himself. He walks with a cane. He would describe himself as elderly, I wouldn't. Um, but he felt he simply couldn't do the physical things a deacon is often assumed must he must do. But his ordination and his heart have deacon written all over him. And we were just delighted when he agreed to be installed. Um it is so important to see that the heart and the eyes to see the needs and the wisdom to be able to care for the needs is where the action is, especially when a de when a deacon is is and it's not all on him. It's not all in him. He then the third work, frankly, has been kind of a mixed bag since the beginning, and it has a fairly high turnover rate in terms of attendees. But there's been a stable core, and from the beginning of worship, one of the core members was a young man in grad school, and he had come from another church in the presbytery. And I don't recall if his father was a deacon or not, but Craig has been serving in that role from what seems the day he arrived. He and his wife has have generously, generously given their time and energy to help in every possible way they can. Um, so it's been really encouraging to see how, with the same session that literally had never served as deacons, God, in his wisdom sent us the deacons we needed in each of the individual works. They aren't the same kind of men in either case. I wouldn't want to swap them out one for another, but in each of the congregations where God has raised them up, they've been the perfect guys.

David Nakhla 21:50

Thank you, Kurt. That's very helpful to kind of paint the picture of what these, you know, all church plants, but all very differing needs. And and a lot of those, you know, diagonal situations, oftentimes it can be out of chronic poverty, it can be out of poor planning, but oftentimes it's things that are out of sight, someone's control, a disaster, car accident, loss of job, uh, or it's just people in transition. And um, it seems to me that church plants, the nature of church planting attracts all these types of people, people who are coming to come into faith. And um that with that comes a lot of baggage that they've they need to work through. And so just the need for uh dional uh care is it seems seems very prevalent in church planting. Uh, you mentioned the Presbytery Diaconal Committee and as a resource for helping with some of the needs, which is great. Maybe we can come back to you, Tyler. You talked about the deacon on loan as we think about some different ways uh to overcome this deficiency, the lack of deacons. Can you talk to a little bit about when you say deacon on loan? What does that mean, Tyler?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Sure. Well, at least how we experienced it, um, was Covenant and Vandalia, our mother church that was planting us, heard our cry for help, said we were saying, there is opportunity downtown and we feel swamped. And you you have a lot of deacons. Uh, we we know you need each of them, but could you give us, could you send us? There was one gentleman in particular, uh, Paul Downs, who has become a deacon now, but at our church. But uh, at the very beginning, he said, Okay, I I'm gonna I'm gonna come and I'm gonna worship with you for a season, and uh I'm going to help to stir up the work of the particular diaconal needs and and attending to them. And so he was there and and we made very clear to our congregation, to our to our church plant that uh Paul Paul was going to be leading the charge with organizing the beginnings of a diaconate, what we hoped would become a diaconate. And uh we saw what a gift Paul was. And then the amazing thing was when uh we particularized and Paul said, I'm gonna come with you and I'm gonna do that with Covenant's blessing. And so it's not always the case. In fact, we had um an elder on loan who came for a whole year and did wonderful work with us, but he he returned to the mother church. And so that can happen with deacons. But what we saw with Paul was Paul at least got the beginnings of an organized diaconate off the ground, something that could become the diaconate. Um, and even if he would have pulled out at that moment um and and gone back to the mother church, uh his his efforts uh would have lasted beyond his presence there, if that makes sense.

David Nakhla 24:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. John, what have you seen as uh ways that church plants have sought to overcome the deficiency of lack of deacons?

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah, I'm I'm gonna give a couple ideas and then I'm gonna come back to the loaned or borrowed deacons well. And actually, all the ideas I'm gonna give at the moment are from my own experience as a church planner in St. Paul, Minnesota. Not all that unlike um Tyler's experience that was an urban church plant, very intentionally so. It's one of the things that you know that the Lord used to attract Anime to go there. And what I hadn't thought about clearly before I went is I had thought about it some, but what does it look like to do diaconal ministry in a church plant? And pretty quickly the Lord just gave opportunities and we were just kind of tripping along, trying to figure out how do we do all the other things we're doing, and how do I do my work without being overwhelmed with this other work that's exciting and that that's a way for us to be useful. So here are a couple things we learned and a couple things we did. You know, I think especially in an urban context, you can look around and see all the need and feel completely overwhelmed. There's so much to do, you want to do all of it. You, you know, like Tyler said very wisely, you know, you just have to understand from the beginning, you can only do so much. That's right. And so one of the things we committed to at the beginning, and I kind of led this charge, is people would come with ideas, maybe, maybe there's a need for this, and they would say we should start a food bank at the church, or you know, pick pick the example. And I would always say, let's go look at who's already doing that first. So let's go meet some churches and see are there churches that are doing this? Let's see some, especially Christian nonprofits and see what churches are they working with to see is there a need that we can fill, or is there a church that's already doing this that we can help? We actually found a lot of times there were churches already doing it, but they were overwhelmed. And if we could send them volunteers that could help them, there was no need for us to recreate it, but there was a really good opportunity for us to do that to help them, which also, in addition to helping people in need, built relationships with other Bible-believing churches in the area, which was important. It was significant for us as a church. So that was the first thing. Uh, the second thing we did is we created the session created something called a mercy committee. We were really clear, these aren't deacons, these aren't deacon candidates, nothing like that. But we're gonna create a committee of we're gonna recruit people who have particular gifts and interests, men and women who would like to help in various ways with mercy needs. And then they're gonna serve under the oversight of the session. We had a monthly report from them where one of them would come and talk to us about things that they were doing or planning, and we would think about how we could help them. And you know, in addition to the fact that it really effectively helped us meet needs, especially within the in the church, it also helped people use their gifts, which I think we have to remember when we talk about mercy ministry. And when I trained deacons, I always told them, You're not being called to do all the mercy ministry.

David Nakhla 27:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

You're called to lead the congregation in mercy ministry. There's lots of people with gifts, and we want all of them to use their gifts in this way, and so we were doing that with the mercy committee. It made sense for us because a lot of our internal needs were retired single women. We had about six of them, and they were more comfortable in with some of their needs being visited by other women than were by men, and rightly so. And so this also gave a clear avenue for women who were interested in that kind of ministry to do that. That was number two. And and actually, when we got to the point of having deacons ordained and installed, we kept that committee, we put them under the oversight of the deacons, and then they had people to help them in their work. The third thing that we did, and this is where I'll come back to uh borrowed deacon. We had a significant need that came up about a year and a half in to our church plant. Spouse left uh someone uh in our church and left her uh not just to pick up all the pieces of a broken marriage, but completely economically destroyed. You know, house being foreclosed on, had to file for bankruptcy, just left with nothing. And I was spending, and I think rightly so, especially at the front end, hours and hours over a couple months just trying to help her pick up the pieces. And you know, there were discipline issues, obviously, and all those things. Uh, but it became pretty clear that there was significant need here that was going to take 12, 18, 24 months of intensive work. And that led to several. Well, it's interesting how the Lord uses trials, right, to strengthen and build his church and use them as gifts. First of all, uh, the church, the session that was overseeing us offered us one of their deacons and said for a year, he's not working at our church, he's working at your church in particular to help in this situation. And he'll give all of his deacon time resources to you guys. And so he helped organize teams to help help her. But it also, and I think this is a key issue, it helped raise up a cast of godly characters in our church who could be useful and had unique gifts, and there were lots of holes that needed to be filled. And so we had a guy, she'd never bought a car before and she needed a car. Help her buy a car, help her create a budget for the first time really in her life that she was she had to do that. Women in the church who helped her, you know, through lots of tears, move out of her house, move into an apartment, try to figure out how do you set up a home on your own. There were just there were a good eight to ten people who filled different gaps, uh, with this deacon helping to kind of oversee it and pull it all together. And those people are still serving in those kind of ways in the church today. But it started with one huge need and a traumatic experience. And in some ways, the Lord used it to make us a stronger church as well.

David Nakhla 31:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

So so I guess I would say figuring out how to use a broad, uh varied collection of gifts and people, uh, to me, that's one of the biggest things we're doing in mercy ministry. How do we engage everybody to use the gifts that they have, which are unique in a way that serves the church and serves Jesus?

David Nakhla 31:26

So, John, that that's a beautiful picture of the body of Christ coming together around that need. Do you have any thoughts on do we have a problem that we need to fix, or do we just we just need to think creatively as as as you were you were talking about there?

SPEAKER_02 31:43

It's probably a little bit of both. I do think we can do a better job of planning for mercy ministry at the front end and providing a structure for it, not just thinking about it, but a structure for it. You know, the Lord prepared me in a certain way. I'd been a deacon and an elder and then a church planner. So by the time I was there, I'd kind of been down this path and organized those kind of things. And so I knew both I can't do this because now I'm called as the pastor and had a variety of experience to kind of build teams. I think some of our church planners don't have that experience. So we need to think about how to help them. But I also think some of it is experimenting. I appreciate the stuff that Kurt shared. Every church plant's different and every church is different. And so some of it is, and this is true of evangelism or mercy ministry or all sorts of other things in the life of the church. Some of it's looking out and saying, what are the opportunities the Lord's giving us? And who are the people he's giving us, because he's giving us the resources to meet these opportunities. We just have to figure out where they are. So let's slow down for a minute and figure out who do we have and what gifts do they have, and then how do we deploy those gifts? And there's only so much structure to that. Some of that's creativity and prayer and making the needs clear and both asking for volunteers, but sometimes you have to chase volunteers.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Like you have this gift, you're not volunteering, but I know you have it.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

And this is a time for you as the Holy Spirit equips you to step into that gap. How can you help us today?

David Nakhla 33:16

Yeah, yeah. That's good. Kurt, uh, lots of church experience. Do you have do you have thoughts? Do uh with respect to is there is there something we need to fix, or is it more of just an opportunity to see how the Lord provides in different ways?

SPEAKER_01 33:35

I like the way you're asking it. The the struggle personally that I've had to confront is my lack of prayer. The Lord says if you if you lack wisdom, pray. And so many times in church ministry we come up with a reality that we just need wisdom. And I confess that sometimes my first instinct is not to pray, but to look around and and and see, well, how can we fix this? And I would encourage my brothers um to encourage me to pray. I've watched um the Lord answer prayers uh in wonderful ways. Uh I've often wondered, do we need to change the way we um plan for church planning up front? Do we need to, in a sense, mandate the presence of deacons as you have a professional provisional session, should you have a provisional diaconate? I would I would counsel against that simply because of the just the restricted resources that we have time-wise. On the other hand, every time the need has been there, we have watched God send to us precisely the man that fit right in the in the thick of the needs. And it was such a blessing to watch God shuffle the chairs, if you will, and and bring to the works the men that that were required. That said, it would be lovely. The three works that I was in essentially were were presbytery-sponsored works. That that has its own dynamics. If this were a mother-daughter situation, I would I would really encourage the the ascending church or the mother church to ask the question, can we pull one of our deacons to focus on this work, even if it's just for a year? I appreciated what John said.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Um, so prayer is really the engine behind the work of the diaconate in every context, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

So I I would say that that we we do need to encourage the church planting teams to have eyes to see the opportunity for ministry so that the ministry of the word doesn't get bogged down and the ministry of mercy does not get neglected. Both of those things are essential.

David Nakhla 36:37

That's great. That's very helpful. So this has been a great, great conversation. Maybe as we try to bring it in for a landing, um, there might be some who are listening who are either involved in a church plant or um or part of a church connected to a church plant. Um, any words of wisdom or encouragement uh you might bring to them as we as we bring this to a close. Maybe Tyler, we'll start with you if you've got any any words of encouragement or wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Yeah, certainly. You know, for for all those that are listening, I would I would say if this has motivated you, if if if you say, hey, I I want to jump in, I want to be part of uh the mercy of Christ extended to uh to all peoples. I would say first just rejoice in small victories. Because it's easy, like John said, to see all of the needs. I mean, let's just start with the household of faith, right? You just look at our churches, and there's a mountain of mercy needs. And we haven't even ventured beyond and have the conversation about the diaconate out in our neighborhoods and whatnot. Uh, but but just beginning with our churches. Um, I'd say, count it great joy when um you see Jesus using the diaconate in these small but impactful ways. Um, and think about Acts 6 and the early stages of the diaconate and how they weren't carrying the world on their shoulders. They were beginning with this very simple, tangible act of love and mercy uh with extending care to widows and how they did it. And so I'd say kill the idealism in you that you're bringing to the diaconate and just embrace the very real. Here's what we have, here's what we're able to do, here's the men that that we have to lead, here's the men and women who are who are ready to uh to follow and help. Um, and let's let's do something. And so just begin with small and steady victories and be be encouraged by that. That I think that's my main word of wisdom that I've I've um that's impacted me so far and carried me forward.

David Nakhla 38:39

Oh, that's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you, Tyler. That's great. Dave, the theme that keeps coming back is the theme of prayer.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

I I like Tyler's reference, obviously, to the office of the deacon in Acts 6. Choose men among you who are known to be full of the spirit and wisdom. Stephen was described as a man of full of faith and of the Holy Spirit. I would say to somebody who is considering mercy ministry, I would say to that person who at just at the beginning of the inclination, should I get involved in this? Yes, you should. If in fact you are walking with the Spirit and you are looking to Him to give wisdom, and you are walking in faith, you will burn out very quickly if you think I'm just gonna bring all my energy to what looks like needs around me. This this is gonna be a lot of work. The the issue is is not what can I do to find myself. It is what can we do as we walk with the Lord? That would be the first thing I'd say.

David Nakhla 39:58

Beautiful, beautiful, thank you, Kurt. That's that's wonderful reminder. Yes, you definitely burn out if you do this on your own strength, that's for sure. John, any closing thoughts, words?

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yeah, if I was taking those good words from Tyler and Kurt and then maybe trying to tie them together to one doctrine, trust that God's sovereign. He brings the right people to your church when you're ready to serve them. And he brings the right people to serve. So if he brings a need, he's brought the people to meet the need. And because we know those two things to be true, that he brought the right people in need and the right people to serve, that's where I think then Kurt's called a pray to give us wisdom. How do we meet this need with the gifts that you've given us right now? They're there. We don't always see them. Can you make that clear to us? Where are the needs and where are the people? It's amazing the things that the Lord does through his church that would seem impossible in the eyes of the world or even in our own eyes, uh, except that God's at work. So he's a good God, he has a good plan for each church and church plant, and it includes mercy ministry. So trust him and and pray and then do the work in faith because God's always faithful. Amen.

David Nakhla 41:27

What great words to end on. Thank you to each of you for joining me on the podcast today. We may have only scratched the surface of this important topic, but we pray that the Lord will use this discussion to stimulate more helpful ideas on how we can serve our church plants and our church planters better in this area through prayer, relying on the Lord, trusting his sovereignty, and taking joy in small victories. So thank you, brothers, for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Thank you, Dave. Thanks, Dave.

David Nakhla 41:57

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reform Deacon podcast.