SPEAKER_00 0:00

Now, when it comes to diaconal ministry, and this is something which I'm just so glad we're talking about this to this audience, this is a live diaconal issue, not just in terms of how do you care for elderly members, widows, for instance, but how do you equip a ministry of mercy among people in the congregation to be caring for their own parents or elderly relatives? And how do we as a congregation deal with those in our midst who maybe don't have children or don't have believing children?

David Nakhla 0:45

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reform Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Knockla. I serve full-time as the administrator of the OPC's Denominational Committee on Diacle Ministries. And co-hosting with me today is the Reverend Chris Cashon, pastor of Trinity Reformed OPC in Lanham, Maryland, and also a member of the Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Chris and I are joined today by Reverend Brian DeYoung, pastor of Grace OPC in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and his brother Greg DeYoung, who serves as an elder at Bethel OPC in Wheaton, Illinois. Brian recently wrote a book entitled Honoring the Elderly, based on a Sunday School series and interaction from that class at Grace OPC. Greg lent his financial expertise to his brother's book, and together they have practical experience with serving both their father and mother in their later years. I can tell you that in my late 20s, early 30s, there was an older deacon in our church who was an only child and never married. This whole topic is very personal to me because when his health began to fail, he asked me to serve as his power of attorney for health. So that gave me much firsthand knowledge of all the complexities of caring for someone through all their health needs and eventually death and settling of an estate. So that's given me a lot of appreciation for and interest in this topic. Brothers, I found your book to cover many areas that I experienced but never thought about in an articulated way. So thank you for writing this book for the good of Christ Church. Caring for the elderly in our churches can certainly be complicated and sometimes overwhelming, and yet it's such an important ministry. So we're thankful to have Brian and Greg with us to help shed some light on the topic. So welcome, Brian and Greg. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Thank you. Good to be here.

David Nakhla 2:52

Well, you covered a lot of great areas, Brian, in the book. I have the book here with lots of flags hanging out of it of a lot of areas that really struck me again in areas that I just hadn't thought about. But maybe you can start with um what drew you to the subject and writing a book on this?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah, our church has about a hundred people in it, you know, a mid-size OP congregation. And as I was talking to people and doing family visitation and other ways of interacting with folks in our congregation, I really began to understand there's a large number of our families who are dealing with some sort of care of some elderly parent or relative or even someone in their neighborhood, some friend of theirs. And as I talked to them, I was hearing similar things about struggles, challenges, questions that they had. And I thought, you know, this is something that we ought to be covering, but where do we go? What are the resources available? And as I started looking for resources, I found that there were a lot of books that provided psychological analysis, um, a number of things that were dealing with anecdotal, you know, this is my story, this is what happened to me, but nothing coming from a biblical theological vantage point, and nothing dealing in depth with certain issues that our folks were facing. So we decided to have a Sunday school class, and to make it really discussion-based, I provided the biblical theological underpinnings in the first several lessons, and then we just started tackling topics. Um, one of the discussions we had was on dementia and Alzheimer's, and boy, that was fascinating because the members of the class knew so much about it from their own personal experience. I knew relatively little at that time, and I just sat there and listened. And the interaction of watching God's people just sharing and talking and interacting, there was something really vibrant about that. And so we we finished the class, and everybody said, Wow, that was really, really good. But you should put this in print, you should make this available for other churches and other people that may be dealing with this. And so, with some pushing and and prodding from my congregation, I did the work of putting it into print. And one of the interesting parts of this was I would go stay at my folks' house and spend days writing and interacting with them. And I began to realize uh the day's coming fairly soon when this is going to be for me, and where these principles are going to be applied to my interaction with my parents and how my brother and sister and I work together in this. And so that's kind of how it all got rolling. I can't imagine there are too many OP churches where there's not at least some aspect of this issue, probably under the surface in most places.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

As deacons uh sit around the table and start thinking about these things, and you just spoke about biblical principles. What would you say would be the driving biblical principle for them to be considering as they're uh looking at the elderly in their church? What would be driving them to provide that care?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

My starting point is the fifth commandment. You know, honor your father and mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God is giving you. And, you know, as I develop that in the book, that that really has a lot of application to adults caring for elderly parents. You know, what does it mean to really honor a parent who maybe is infirmed, maybe is not even able to interact in a pleasant, positive way. And honoring the the parent becomes kind of the um the jumping off point. Now, there's a lot of other scripture too, and those are included in the books or in the book, but that's really what drives my thinking. You know, let's let's keep the fifth commandment. I was I was just talking to someone yesterday whose brother had passed away, and at the funeral, the son of the deceased man, who is a minister, led the service and gave a beautiful tribute to his father. And I just commented to my friend, I said, Yeah, keeping the fifth commandment. He was like, Yeah, yeah, that's it, that's it. And and so, you know, the the Ten Commandments are are awfully big in our perspective, and and that's the one that really I think guides us.

David Nakhla 7:56

And how do you correlate that to those in the congregation who are not our parents, those who are elderly? Can you help correlate that a little bit, even as we think about deacons and and their role in in all of this?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah. Well, and the the Westminster standards are pretty clear at this point in the uh catechisms that the fifth commandment is not just for biological family, it's for how you relate to superiors, equals, and inferiors. And I think there we have a broader view of the commandment that we're we're dealing with people who may be superior to us in age and in grace and in ability. There may be people who are our equals, maybe people who are our inferiors. Now, when it comes to diaconal ministry, and this is something which I'm just so glad we're talking about this to this audience, this is a live diaconal issue, not just in terms of how do you care for elderly members, widows, for instance, but how do you equip a ministry of mercy among people in the congregation to be caring for their own parents or elderly relatives, and how do we as a congregation deal with those in our midst who maybe don't have children or don't have believing children? Scripture talks about those who are widows indeed, and I think what that means is it's a widow that doesn't have any family support, no children, no siblings, no relatives, they are all on their own. And when it comes to those sorts of people, the church has a primary duty to them. But those who have children or other family members, we need to get those children and family members to be doing what they're supposed to be doing. And so diaconal ministry can be going to, say, uh an adult child and saying, you know what, your parent needs your help. And we're here to help too, but this doesn't primarily fall upon us. This primarily falls upon you as a child, and you have a duty, and we're gonna be there to support and encourage you, but we're not just gonna take that over and do it all ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Greg, uh, I understand that you and Brian, along with your sister, as Brian indicated, have some firsthand experience in caring for your parents, your elderly parents. Could you just share some of that with us? And uh, did you all agree on everything up front? Or and and how did you work together as a team during uh during this time?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, this has become fairly personal for Brian and myself and our uh sister Amy. I think it was four to five years ago that it became more apparent to all of us that mom and dad were getting to a point where some greater level of involvement by us was going to be helpful. And thankfully, they were generally amenable to that. One of the greatest things that came out of this is that as we began to explore how we might help them more directly, be more active in their lives, there was no real conflict that arose between us. And I'm just so grateful for that. I recognize that in many families that is not the situation. Um, there can be differences of opinion, strong differences between siblings. Perhaps there are family dynamics that have been sour for years or even decades, and that will only complicate trying to step in alongside your elderly parents. Um, but in our case, especially uh three or four years ago, as we began talking with them about the possibility of relocating from Michigan to Illinois to be closer to the three of us, we were very conscious about the need to be communicating together and trying to just be very open and building a relationship of trust. And thankfully that worked well. Um, today I'd say it's relatively rare that the three of us get on a call together to talk something over because we've settled into a good routine. As my sister put it at one point several years back, Brian, you handle those spiritual dimensions. Greg, you've got the financial, and I'll take the day-to-day stuff. And it has played out that way very well. And my sister with the day-to-day things, that's aided by the fact that she only lives about 10 minutes away. Whereas I'm a bit more than an hour, and then Brian is about two and a half hours. So thankfully, we have we have worked out well together, and I think we've just made a priority of being open and transparent and feeling like we're all pulling in the same direction.

David Nakhla 13:21

You covered a lot of very interesting topics: elder abuse, uncooperative parents, ministering to parents who are unbelievers. Role reversal, how you know, as we get older, the the parent becomes a child, the child becomes a parent. Just a lot of great, great areas. Maybe we can talk a little bit about that situation where it's time to think about a care facility. Brian, is there a biblical choice? Is it truly caring for them if you don't provide the day-to-day yourself? Maybe you can talk a little bit to that.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah, that that was a little bit touchy when we went through this in our Sunday school class because you know, different families had made different choices. And I think that's generally true in the church. Some will say, My parent is never going to a facility. I'm never going to uh allow that. I will take care day to day until they're gone. And you know, that can be a very noble pursuit. It can also be an overwhelming pursuit. Others would say, I just can't handle it, I don't have bandwidth for this, I need professional help, and I'm going to choose a good nursing home, some kind of care facility where they can be and I can have some confidence. And so it's not as if there's a biblical mandate that it always must be this particular way. And I think anyone who tries to make a case too strongly for you know any side of this discussion is on really shaky ground. This is an area where wisdom has to come into play and consideration of a lot of circumstances. So let's use an example. Let's say that you find out that you have a brain tumor. Is it really the case that a family member must do your operation and be there for you in your recovery until you've recovered from your brain tumor? We would say, absolutely not. Go find a doctor that can do that work for you. And it's not neglectful or abusive or sinful to say, I need a medical professional to do things I cannot do for myself, yeah, or for people I love. And when it comes to elderly conditions, especially when you get into dementia, there's a lot of very specific care that's needed that well-intended individuals simply cannot provide. Or if they can provide, it's going to exhaust them unless they've got staff to help them on a regular basis. And so, in some kinds, some situations, I think the most caring thing to do is to say, we need to find professionals in a good facility that can provide the kind of care my loved one needs, which I realistically cannot provide. You're going to end up neglecting something or other. And while you may say, I feel duty bound to give round-the-clock care to my aging parents, well, what about your spouse? And what about your children? They need you too, and they have a claim on your time and energy as well. And so sometimes wisdom says, hey, we have to make a choice to use these professionals and this facility. Now, I would say a couple things to be cautious of because in our society today, there is a tendency to warehouse the elderly, put them in a facility and forget about them. Pay the bill so they don't get kicked out, but just let those people take care of them. And every time I go to a nursing home or a care facility and walk the halls, I just wonder how many of these people see their family weekly, monthly, annually? And and is it really enough to see your parent maybe once every six months? Yeah. You you cannot just warehouse them, even though society will facilitate that. Uh the a Christian should not do that. Also, when you choose a facility, you have better do your homework and you better keep watching to see what's going on. Because facilities oftentimes can have built-in difficulties. Uh there was a member of our congregation, they put their uh parent in a nursing home. It seemed like a good situation, it had a memory care aspect to it. And it turned out that there was another residence in that same pod of that facility that was doing lewd and somewhat criminal things to other residents. Well, the staff never reported that to the family. The family discovered what was going on and they said, we don't want our mother here exposed to that kind of stuff. Now, the facility, as so many of them are, was kind of understaffed. And you can't keep an eye on everybody all the time, even if you have security cameras. And so a Christian who puts their parent into a facility has got to be regularly interacting and being an advocate for the parent and always watching to make sure the care is being given, that medications are being administered, and that this is not just um an abusive situation, a neglectful situation. So, you know, if I were to put a parent into a facility, I would want to keep interacting with that facility and keep an eye on her to make sure she's well cared for. And in the facility that our mother is in, I've been very pleased. My sister sees it on uh almost a daily basis, and we have a great amount of confidence in the kind of care mom is getting, but it's really something we got to keep an eye on.

David Nakhla 20:09

Yeah. I was just listening uh recently on a podcast, and they were just talking about how understaffed these facilities are. And oftentimes I think in terms of when that worker has time to give one person a bath and they know that this person over here has not nobody's come in for three months, but they know this person's coming, their family's coming in every day. Which one are they going to choose to give a bath to? As you say, the best way to ensure that your family members are receiving the care that they that that you're paying for and that you'd what would want them to receive is is really by being that by being present on a regular basis and and an advocate for them. So I think that's well said.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

But in my mother's case, this has been a social bonanza for her. She has probably a closer circle of active friendships than she's had in many, many years. And now she sees it as a mission field. We're so thankful to the deacons at Momento PC because they come quite a distance to pick mom up every Sunday morning and bring her back after morning worship or after the fellowship lunch. And now mom is inviting other ladies to come along.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

So there can be some great benefits to having your parent go into uh independent living or assisted living in this case. I realize uh in more advanced stages of decline where full nursing care is needed, the Dynamics might shift.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Well, Greg, as we're talking about uh healthcare facilities and uh probably lots of cost, what uh what signs might indicate uh that an elderly parent can no longer effectively manage his or her finances? What would you look for and what should our deacons be thinking about as they observe things?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, this is an interesting area, and it's not always easy to figure out when that uh parent or grandparent is losing capacity in the financial realm. Some of the clues that can be helpful is if uh mail seems to be piling up unopened, uh certainly if they're unpaid bills, uh, sometimes finding out that bills have been paid twice, if they're unable to balance their checkbook on a consistent basis, if someone is still doing their own income taxes, and often at that stage in life, income tax preparation is fairly simple, but that's an area where errors can be made, and of course, those could be costly errors. Um, what we discovered was helpful in the case of my mother was to ask if I could look over her checking account statements for a couple of months, and then also there was a credit card that she would use for some purchases and just look over those statements if possible, if the parent is amenable to it, to ask that you be put on the account to receive a duplicate statement, uh, not as an owner of the account, but just to receive that information. And we got to a point where uh my mother was very amenable to me taking over the handling of her checking account. And that I think has been helpful not only for her and relieving her of a certain amount of stress, but it's also just given more confidence to me and Brian and Amy that there's not going to be something happening financially to her detriment that none of us are aware of.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

That's that's very helpful. Along those same lines, uh Greg, what would you caution folks about concerning common mistakes that we all might make in trying to kind of insert ourselves into a parent's uh financial world?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

You know, the number one problem that I've seen and experienced with my mother's circumstances, but also I've seen this over my years as a financial planner with many clients, is having a child's name added to a bank account or to other assets like the ownership of a home. And this is almost always done with the best of intentions, that this way the child can help mom by writing out checks for her and keep an eye on things. But what people don't realize is that if a child is added as a joint tenant or some sort of co-owner on that account, as soon as that paperwork is signed, the parent has effectively, in the eyes of the IRS, made a gift of half of the value of that account or half of the value of that asset to that particular child. And that could raise a number of potential problems. First, it might be that gift taxes would be due on a gift if it's over, at this point, $17,000 per year. Secondly, with the child now considered in the eyes of the law, an owner on that account of that asset, if the child would be sued, a creditor could actually go after their parents' assets to help satisfy a legal judgment. And finally, it tends to wreak havoc with the estate plan that hopefully the parents had put together, a will saying they want my assets divided in uh equal thirds among my three children, but all of a sudden Susie is half owner of the house, which is mom's largest asset at that point. In my experience, we went to the bank with mom and said, we would just like to have my sister's name added to the checking account so she gets statements. And the answer was, sure, we can take care of that. But in effect, the paperwork made my sister a joint owner. So we had to unwind that and go back through a different set of paperwork and actually educate the bank personnel as to what we were trying to accomplish.

David Nakhla 27:08

So health care can be a big area of responsibility with respect to caring for the elderly or our parents. And with that can come, you know, even burden and guilt associated with those decisions. Um, particularly when when this their condition is is declining and it's not clear that the treatment is is going to be helpful. Maybe, Brian, if you could talk a little bit about the difference between refusal of treatment, not of life, that you referred to in in the book regarding the health care of a loved one. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah. This insight came from an article by Gilbert Mylander. Uh he had some really interesting perspectives on this. And one of the things he said is that physical life is not the great goal, that's not the end for which we are striving. And from our perspective as Christians, that's not even really the base definition of life. For us, life is knowing and relating to God through Christ. And that takes place here in this world, but it will take place even more in the world that is to come. And so clinging to our physical existence is not the great end and goal of all things. And when we come up against a decision that we have to make about care, treatment, things like this, we have to view that decision through this prism of a Christian perspective on what life is. So the example that I use in the book, which I think is a good case, let's suppose I have a terminal illness, um, it's just incurable, and the doctor is giving me maybe three months. And he comes to me and says, Now we've got this new kind of experimental treatment that we could give you, and we think it could extend you maybe another two months. So now we're going from three months to five months, but the price tag is a couple million, and it since it's experimental, it may not be covered by your insurance. What do you say? And I'm being offered treatments and it would potentially extend my physical existence another couple months. Do I have to take that? Am I duty bound to say, well, if it'll keep me alive for an extra eight weeks, then I'm in no matter how much it costs? But but what if the acceptance of that treatment actually impoverishes my wife and children and wipes out any estate that I might have? Am I really showing love and care to them by grasping at a treatment which is going to give me a few more probably miserable weeks on earth? So, from our Christian perspective, we want to understand what life is, and we're choosing life not only for this world, but for the life that is to come, which is the real life. And sometimes that may mean saying we decline the treatment offered. And that's not a wrong choice, that's not a sinful choice. That's not saying, kill me now, let's get it over with. Our dad had a point where he just didn't want treatment anymore. He was tired of the suffering from his cancer, he was tired of the treatment, it made him feel miserable to take the treatment, and he just said to us, No, I don't want this anymore. And when that first came out, I think all of us, and especially our mom, were really kind of taken back. How how would you turn down that treatment? But it was his choice, and it was his choice because he knew his time was very short. And we all came to a point of saying, Okay, dad, we respect that. That that's your choice, and we're with you until the Lord takes you home. Could he have lived another, you know, couple months, maybe even six months? Maybe, maybe not, but that choice was made, and I don't think it was an unrighteous choice. People carry around, and especially people caring for elderly parents, making these kinds of medical ethical decisions, they sometimes carry around a lot of false guilt. And they think, well, if I just made a different choice, if I just made the right choice, then this suffering would not have come on my loved one. I was a bad child because I didn't make the right choice. Well, I I think that's false guilt that has to be pushed off. You know, Satan loves to do one of two things to take away any legitimate guilt and to load us up with false guilt. And when a believer is loaded with false guilt, they begin second guessing themselves, they kind of retract and curl up in the fetal position, and they don't become useful anymore to their loved ones because they're just regretting and second guessing the choices they made. It would be great, and I think we would all agree with this. It would be great if the the clear and obvious choice presented itself every single time, and we never had any question about what was the right thing to do.

David Nakhla 32:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

But that is just not the world we live in. We're always having to weigh things, and sometimes we're choosing between the good and the bad, but sometimes we're choosing between the good and the better, and knowing which is the better and which one we ought to choose is not always clearly revealed to us. And so prayerfully we say, Lord, guide my steps and bless the choices I'm trying to make. And we jump at what we think is the right thing. And you know, if anyone listening to this is carrying around that false guilt, just cast it off. Throw it at the throw it at the foot of the cross of Jesus and let him take away your false guilt. Because you don't have to bear that.

David Nakhla 33:50

Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Wow, there's so much wisdom in that. Thank you, thank you, Brian. Greg, uh a little bit easier question, I think. Uh we often hear that elderly and others uh are targets for scams and attacks. What are a few measures that you might recommend that could be taken to lessen the chances of our elderly, our parents, those who are vulnerable, um uh being attacked in this way?

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, this is an epidemic, and and it's so sad the stories that you hear. You have to ask how they might they gain access to my loved one? And more than likely, it's going to be through a phone call, an email, a text message, or on social media. And so I think for the child or the deacon looking to be helpful, keep in mind that those are the entry points. And um I just emphasize to my mom: never click on a link, an email or a text. No matter how legitimate it looks like, just leave it alone. Nothing is that urgent. And the next time I or Brian or Amy stop in, ask us to look at it with you. Never give out information over the phone of a personal nature to someone that you don't know directly. Again, it can't be that urgent. What's the worst that could happen, Mom? They might send a bill collector after you. We can deal with that. They can't cut off the electricity or the heat because she's in a facility. But I just try to emphasize that nothing is so urgent that you need to click on that link or provide that information now. Let us help you with it. And so far, by God's grace, that's kept her out of any trouble.

David Nakhla 35:48

Wow. That's those are some really helpful tips, Greg. And uh maybe the same tips that we uh that we give our kids. I I give to my high school age kids. Don't click on leaks and don't give out information. And uh, and oftentimes, I mean, that's one one of the interesting things about ministering to the elderly is is kind of that role reversal where as we get older, we start to become more childlike. And so helping guide our the elderly and protect them in way in the similar ways that we protect our children is spot on. Well, as you both know, our podcast is designed uh for deacons and and those who are interested in the ministry of mercy. So maybe from that perspective, could you help us understand the signs to look for in a member of the church who may be overwhelmed by caring for their elderly parents? And then maybe some first steps for getting involved when the needs of an elderly member may not be met.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Well, one thing which I look for is when one of our members starts absenting themselves from not just worship, but from other activities of the church. And rather than assuming the worst, it's good to ask questions. Send an email or a text. Hey, I didn't see you at church on Sunday. What's going on? How are you doing? Is there anything I can pray for you? And oftentimes that will turn up things we didn't even know about. I recently found out that one of our members had been out of worship quite a bit because her husband was diagnosed with cancer. And she was staying home to care for her husband who's going through chemo. And once I found that out, it just changed the whole thing. And so asking questions when you stop seeing people, and just you know, this is basic pastoral care that any officer of the church can and should do, just to say what's going on with you. And if they begin to say, Well, you know, I'm dealing a lot with my parent or or whatever, then asking follow-up questions, you know, how often are you over there? What types of duties are you doing? How much time are you spending per day? Are there other people who are part of the team to help your parent, or is this all primarily on you? And just trying to figure out what's going on, who's involved. And if this person is giving you know 75% of the care and spending you know upwards of 12 hours a day, that's a danger sign. Nobody can sustain that. And then you have to say, can we come alongside of you and help you? Is there maybe someone in the church that could go with your mom to a doctor's appointment? One of our widows just recently asked me, would there be someone who could come to my apartment and just do some cleanup and mop the floor for me? Sure, we got people that can do that. I would love to do that. Now that I know, I can kind of farm that out to some of our deacons and other volunteers, and they'll take it up and they'll do a great job with it. So you got to kind of play the point guard, I guess.

David Nakhla 39:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Greg, anything to add to that? I think particularly if there's an elderly member that you're concerned about, it's so important to try to partner up with their adult children, assuming they have adult children. In my experience, an older individual is likely to let you in a little bit, but probably not to the degree that is really going to be helpful because they view their children as being the ones who they would reveal this kind of personal information to. And so I think uh trying to come alongside, get to know their adult child or adult children would be a really helpful step. And also as a deacon or someone else in the church trying to help to get a sense for the family dynamics. Have there been other areas of family conflict? If so, those are probably going to be stress-tested as that parent ages. And maybe there are things beyond just the parents' circumstances that need to be dealt with thoughtfully and prayerfully.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Something I might also add, we we've been talking kind of along a reactive line, and that's appropriate. But I'm a big advocate of being proactive. And this was a large part of why I wrote the book and put it in the format that it's in, including questions for discussion at the end of each chapter. My my hope was that churches would take this up and say, let's do an adult Sunday school class or let's do a small group on this topic and get people thinking and talking about it before it becomes an issue. Now, when I was writing this book and Greg was helping me, our our parents were fairly independent at that point. In fact, my dad was fiercely independent at that point. Um then they got to the point where they weren't so independent, they really needed us. And so if you think about things before they're facing you, you have the opportunity to process through a little bit. Like if I were to construct a team of helpers, who could I really count on that would be part of my team? And you know, of the siblings I have, which one of my siblings would be cooperative and willing to be involved? Is there a doctor? Is there a lawyer? Is there an accountant? And by thinking through those things, then you've got stuff sort of in place so that when crises hit, you're ready to meet the crises. You're not scrambling to say, oh, good greet, what do we do now? And so by being proactive, you plan in advance. You're putting the sandbags out before the flood hits.

David Nakhla 42:06

Well, thank you, um, Brian. I think that's a great way to end so much of the ministry of mercy. Oftentimes we can view it as problems to deal with. And yet in Christchurch, it really presents opportunities. And I'm sure both of you would testify that as you minister to your family through these times, it is oftentimes the case that these are times when we draw closest to the Lord as we lean on him for strength. You talk about that in the book. And these are really ways that the church can even draw together uh as we serve the body of Christ. Well, there is so much more to say on this topic. I think we probably barely scratched the surface. You covered so many great areas in the book. And so we'll include a link to Brian's book, Honoring the Elderly, in our show notes. Definitely recommend you get it. Maybe your church would like to use it as an adult Sunday school class, as Brian suggested. He goes in great depth on many of these topics and trust that it would be a useful resource for you. So thank you, Brian and Greg, for joining us. Really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Very enjoyable.

David Nakhla 43:16

Thank you. Super. And uh, Chris, thanks for joining me as well.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

It's been a great blessing.

David Nakhla 43:20

Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reform Deacon podcast.