SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yeah, you know, no one chooses to be a refugee. And um people go to the camps because they are forced. And for example, the people we visited yesterday see what they are going through. They really want to get out of their life. But they are pressed in between two roles. Like there's no way.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Nakla. I'm coming to you today from Juba, South Sudan, where I'm here with my friend Okuch Othello, who is South Sudanese but actually now lives in Uganda, now working with missionary Charles Jackson at Knox School of Theology. And I thought it'd be wonderful to hear a little bit about Okuch's background, how he came to do this. He lived for a while as a refugee and has got a wonderful testimony. And so thankful for his willingness to share with us a little bit about that. And so welcome to the program, Akuch. Thank you. Yeah. So, Akuch, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Thanks so much. I can talk the whole day about where I came from and where I am today, knowing that all that is because of God's grace. I was born to a family that was not a believing family. My father and my mother were not believers. And I'm the last born in my family. Have three sisters who are older than me. And my father was a soldier at the time, and he died when I was about five. So I was raised up by my mother, and she was not a believer. But I thank God for her because of all that she did taking care of us until we were mature. I came to Christ when I was about 12, 13, in the year 2000. I was listening to a minister who came down from the US and I came to minister in my local church in Pushalla, which is about 700 miles from here from Juba.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Yeah, and that's near the border of Ethiopia.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Right on the border of Ethiopia because my tribe is divided by the border. Part of us are in Ethiopia, and we Sudan side. The preacher was preaching and uh he made an altar call after the sermon, and I found myself in front confessing. Anyway, that that was the genesis of my work with the Lord 2000. And so I came to the Lord, I was baptized a few weeks later, and uh and then by then that's when South was still fighting with the North because the peace agreement that we have that led to the independence of Sudan, South Sudan, was signed in 2005. So that's five years before that. So a few months later, I I had to leave the country. I had to go to Kenya to Rebejis Camp. That is Kakuma, northwestern part of Kenya. Kakuma camp, yeah. Yeah, one of the biggest actually by then. So I left with a group of young men and women. We were 84 in total. Two girls and 82 boys. And uh so we left the country. And by food? No. There were UN trucks that came to deliver food from Kenya, and when they were going back empty, we decided to go with them and they took us to Kenya. So when when I reached in Kenya, we were registered as refugees, so I stayed in the camp for three years. Part of the reason why I left the country was by then the SPL, which were the rebel at that time, were recruiting young men by force to join the army. They would surround the whole village. In the morning, you woke up, they're all over, and they would take the young men that seemed to be strong enough to all like A-47 and take them to the camp, to their military camps. So that was part of the reason, because my father died fighting for this nation. My uncle, he fought for the freedom of this nation. His son joined, and my mother didn't want me to be part of that. So I left the country. The second reason I left the country was also to get education, because by then there was no government in the south. There were no schools, because where there's no government, there's no facility. I mean, the the schools that we had at that time were run by volunteers, soldiers. Soldiers who knew how to write and read would just gather us together under a tree and the teachers, whatever they knew. So we did, I was looking for a school as well. Well, I got to Kakuma, stayed there for three years. I appreciated Kakuma because there was good education that I got there than what I got at home. But life was not easy. It was so tough that uh, and part of it I was 13 years old when I left. Staying on our own, cooking for ourselves, I mean taking care of ourselves. It was not an easy thing because that was actually my first time to be away from my mother. So it wasn't easy, things were tough. So there were a lot of things that took place in the camp that actually discouraged me from living for many years in the camp. So after three years, I had to go back. We were in the group with other young men, and my friends, some of them were older than me, and by then the United States was giving resettlements to refugees who want to move to the US. Canada was doing the same thing, Australia was doing the same thing. And my friends want us to go and move to the US. But I don't know. Something just told me I don't want to leave Africa. I kept telling my friends I'm not going anywhere. If I'm to move out of here, I'll go back to my country. And so my friend left. Almost everybody in my group left. They were taken to the US. And uh so I was left alone and things were not easy. I didn't know that God had a planned for all this because when I got back home, by then I was just a kid in classic, that's grade six, so that I was young. Anyway, I was a little older than that class in age because I did not get to school early at home. But yeah, in terms of education, I didn't have much education. So I got back home. Few months later, I remember that's actually the funniest part of my history. I I was sharing a little house with my one of my younger uncles, and there was a problem with the door. So in the it was in the morning we were repairing, whatever was the problem, I can't remember. And a boy rode on our compound on a bike and says, Okuch, I was told you pack your things and go to the airstrip. Now that's the small airport we have in my hometown. And so I I thought it was a joke. I'm like, like, what am I going to do in there? And he says, I was sent by the church that you go to the airstrip right now with your things. I did not understand. So my uncle said, Why don't you go to the church and find out? So I went to the church and the elders told me that there was a training in Kenya run by a Middle East Reformed Fellowship, and they wanted three people from our local church to go for that training. Now, this is a training for pastors, evangelists, and church leaders. I wasn't one of those. So I asked the elders why did they pick on me? Because two things disqualified me completely from that. One, I was too young for that kind of training. Second, I did not have education, just a grade six. And yet in the church, we had people who are older than me and with more education. The elders said the decision has already been made. Go home, pack your things, go to the airport. In one hour, you're going, you're flying to Kenya. I came back home, I told my mother, my sisters, and they were like, well, pack your things and go. So I did not argue. I went to the airport, I was taken to Kenya, to a town called Lokishokyo. Now, they had been picking people from all over South Sudan, and we were the last to be picked. And so when we arrived there, class was already going on. So I entered in class and I found myself I was the grandson to everybody in class. Because I was the youngest man with gray hair and all that. And everybody looked at me, what are you doing here, you kid? Yeah, anyway, that's the genesis of my not just working with the Lord, but passion for the ministry to begin right there. Because despite my lack of education, okay, I cannot say I understood everything that I was taught there, but somehow it gave me the passion for the ministry. And after that training, it was for three months. After that training, I told myself I need to do more on this. While the training was going on, of course, because I was too too young for that kind of training, everybody took interest in me. They want to talk to me. What do you want to do? What do you want to be in life and why are you here and all that? And by then they were bringing lecturers from all over the US, Australia. So there was this lecturer that came from Australia. His name is Makaiva, and he came with his wife. The wife took interest in me. So she would sit with me, talk to me for a long time. She said, I think you need to go back and finish your school because this is not your level. Then when you finished your high school, you can decide if that's what really you want. So that family took me back to school. They sponsored my studies. I finished primary school, high school. 2009, I finished my high school. And uh so I sat down with them in Nairobi because I went to school in Kenya. They sent me to school in Kenya. I sat down with them in the night in the hotel in Nairobi after I finished with the exams. And uh they asked me, now what do you want to do? You finish high school. And the wife had a list of things that I could study in Vaz. And I kept saying, I want to go for theology. And she was like, Is that really what you want to do? And I said, Yes, I want to go for theology. Why do you want to go for theology? She asked. I said, you know, because by then I had already realized that there's a lot of need in the church back home. And we had only one minister. And he was in the main church in the town in Pushala. But the rest of churches were taken care of by people who were not training and they were not Udain. And you can imagine the challenges that they were going through. And uh so I already seen that as a challenge, and I said, I want to be trained, go back and train these people. Then they said, fine, then the next step is to look for a theological school. So we look around, we did not find any reformed theological school in around Kenya. The only one that came up was in Uganda, Africa Bible University. So they they wrote to the university, but they did not get a reply on time. Meanwhile, while I was still waiting for the university to respond, I had a friend who had who had gone to Uganda to a town in Uganda called Ginger. There is a Baptist seminary in that place, and while he was there, he had about Westminster Theological College in Uganda. So he told me about that college, and so I shared the information with the Makaivas, they check it out and they were like, that's the right place, go there. Anyway, I I in 2011 I ended up in Uganda. Was trained for three years after my training undergraduate, graduated in 2013. And 2013, that's when South Sudan went into war with itself again. A lot of fight in Juan and uh I couldn't come back. So the Makaivas told me, why don't you continue with your masters? So I enrolled in what is now Africa Reformation Theological Seminary in Kampala. That's where I graduated with MDF. All these, when I was taking my classes, I realized the the more I read, the more passion and zeal I developed for the ministry. So I was really praying when I was doing my MDEF that I finished and get involved in a real ministry, not just sitting in class reading books in the library, but get to the field and really what I've been trained to do. I graduated in 2019 with MDEF, but while in December, so while I was still waiting to come back home, then COVID came in and I couldn't come, so I got stuck in in Kampala. There wasn't any any much that was going on because everything was shut down. And then when things just opened up, I think in in July actually, then Dr. Charles Jackson and shared with me about his ministry in in Bali with Knox School of Theology. He asked if I would be willing to go and help him with the college. I signed up for that. So I joined Charles and uh because he wanted to register the college with the National Council for Higher Education to award degrees, like recognized degrees, because they had signed MOU with Livingstone International University, so the students were getting their papers from that university. But now Charles wanted to have it independent and you know, so they can also be able to control the kind of theology that is taught there. There's also a church that is meeting on the campus at Knox, run by one of my colleagues, Paul Magala. I got involved in the church because I really want to be part of a local church so that I can also learn, because you know, uh learning in class is different from in the field. And so I wanted to work under someone who can mentor me. And uh so I got involved in that church, preaching once in a while. We have not yet received our accreditation from the National Council for Higher Education, but now the good news is we are planting a church and I can't wait to be part of it. Charles is planting a church, and it will be in Bali, and I've already come under care, so I would work with him as interns as I walk through my ordinations. Now, while I was doing my undergraduate, I had a lecturer from Scotland. His name is Danlop William. One time he called me in his office. He asked me, What do you want to do with your theology? And I told him, you know, I really I'm really interested in teaching. So I want to be able to teach uh uh in a college, theological college. And he asked me, Have you considered being ordained as a pastor? And I told him, I've never really given it a thought. Because I think I I would really be comfortable in teaching than in pastoring. And he told me you need to think about that. I don't know whether he saw some quality in me, but every time I teach a course, I would realize there's more I need to do. And and I think William, uh William Dunlow was right because if I get involved in in a local church, that kind of experience in a church would also help me in my teaching ministry. That's where I am right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah. Thank you. It's exciting. Can you talk a little bit about how you came into the Reformed Faith and how that opened your eyes to even maybe the need for the teaching of the Reformed faith in Africa?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

You know, when I became a believer, the Presbyterian Church of now South Sudan, by then it was the Presbyterian Church of Sudan. They had not yet started ordaining women. It was still true to the Bible. Also, since I had no theological background, I didn't have knowledge in the Bible, I couldn't tell really the struggle that the church had at that time. But when I joined the college, as I got more exposed to the reformed theology, my understanding of the Bible became deeper and deeper. And also, that's when actually that I realized there were some of the things that have been done in my church and they were not right. Because when I'm exposed, then I keep realizing some of the things that were taking place in my church back here. Because by then the women of the nation already come in. And he told me very clearly if you want to work with us, you do what we do, or else go and plan your own church. And that's when I realized there was a big problem back home here. And uh and that's I I really prayed that I need to to help. So the more I got exposed to reform theology, that's when I actually realized that there were some of the things that were being done in the church back home here that were not right. And I would have not known that if I wasn't exposed to reform theology. Yeah, I think reformed theology really opened up my eyes to see the real ministry that the Lord wants us to do. And the church back home here doesn't see that. Well, they may see it, but I think they are blinded by the support they get from some of these big churches in the US, like Presbyterian Church of the United States of America. They send a lot of money and they tell these people what to do. They are not ready to do what's right, but because they want to receive money. So I went to a Reformed Theological Coalition.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

You were telling me the other day, in your experience in Ukraine Kampala, with regards to being an African who's pursuing theology as an unusual thing. You can you share that story?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Sure. Uh a lot of my fellow Africans, and I think it is not only true to Uganda, but uh then the entire Africa. A lot of people usually, like when it comes to choices of courses to do in the university, people want to do courses that will bring them money. And usually things like law, when you finish, you get a quick job and you hand a lot of money. That's what kind of courses people run to. When I sign up for theology, just a young man, and even some of my family members did not like it. And one of the reasons is how will you make money? Those are some of the questions that they keep asking me. Theology is for old people. I realize that that's a big misconception that so many people in Africa have toward theology, but not realizing that, you know, just like a doctor who is not trained cannot operate someone. So someone who is not well trained in theology cannot really understand the truth in the in the Bible because he lacked the training. And lack of the training is one of the biggest problems we have in the church in Africa. Take example of our church here, Presbyterian Church of South Sudan. A lot of the pastors, especially in General Assembly and in our presbyteries, many of them have no training. Actually, if you take a survey, those who have diplomas in theology would be very few. And if you analyze them, those who have, from a reform theological colleges, maybe even zero. And so that that's to me is a problem because when the right teaching is not passed from the pulpit, then the the congregation is not fed. And uh for the congregation to be healthy, the right teaching has to come from the pulpit. And the right teaching could not come from the pulpit if the minister is not trained. And training has to come from the seminary. So so if we don't go to seminaries, how will we get the tools to teach our people? So I take training as priority for anyone who needs to be part of a local church because it is only after someone has been well trained that he can be able to give out the right preaching.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

How do you see the Lord using you as part of the solution, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, I actually thank God so much. And uh because that was my desire when I told you earlier when I got to reform, Middle East Reform Fellowship, my desire was to be trained and go back and train others. And so, right now, with Knox School of Theology, I think that's an answer to my prayer back then, because at Knox School of Theology, that's what we are aiming at. Training local pastors who will go back to be trainers in their local churches. And we we want to expand that beyond Uganda. When we get our credition, I think Knox School of Theology will sell all over Africa because right now we don't have any reformed theological college that offer undergraduate training. I'm not a prophet, but I'm seeing Knox School of Theology being one of the only colleges in Africa that will give solid reformed theology in undergraduate. And I thank God to be part of that. And I I actually like I told Charles Jackson that if this is what God wants me to do, I don't regret joining theology in my early age. I think this is what God wants me from the beginning. And I'm here not because I want to be, I'm here because God wants me to be. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

So can you can you talk a little bit more about where you began? Do you live in a village? I remember the first time I met you, you you talked about the the only ways, there's no roads to your village. You gotta, you know, the only way that you're gonna get there is flying in because it can through the airstrip. Can you describe your upbringing? What did that look like in those first 10, 13 years of your life? Can you paint that picture for an American audience who has no what this looks like?

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Well, Pushala, that's my own town, is as I said, is right on the border of Ethiopia. The nearest town to our little actually we call it a town, but it does it doesn't look like a town. It's just a village. It's just a big village. Yeah. The nearest town that we can get supply from is in Ethiopia side. It's completely cut off from the rest of South Sudan. No road connection. The only way you can access from Cuba is flying. And right now, to fly there is $275. That's one way. And you you cannot buy a return ticket. You will have to book another one, $275 to come back. So that's very expensive moving between here and there. And even during dry season, it is very dangerous to drive because there's no road. Anyway, you can if you have a land cruiser, you can drive through the bush, but chances of reaching there are safe also is not there because you may be attacked by anyone on the road. So we get supplies from Ethiopia. Also, there's no road. People have to walk, walking, carrying. Yeah, walking, carrying things on their head. You walk and uh actually you leave in the morning, sleep on the way, get there the following day, maybe maybe midday, and buy your stuff, put them on your head, carry it back, and there are two main rivers you have to cross. And one of them is okay, one is a seasonal river, it will dry up during the dry season, you can just cross, but the other one you have to go on a local boat, yeah, you you you row it, so you put your stuff there, and that's the kind of the village that I was brought up in. There's no no market where you go and buy stuff in because when you go to this nearest town in Ethiopia, what you buy is for your consumption, you come and use it in the house. We run out, and and during rainy season, movement becomes impossible. But when I moved to Kenya, when I when the Makaivas sponsored me to go to school, that was 2004. And I was, I think I was about 14, 15, 14, 15 at that time. So Juba was opened up, and then I I took a bus from Nairobi to Kampala, Kampala to Juba. For the first time, that's when I came to Jubba 2006, when I finished primary school waiting to join ice school. So from Juba here, then I have to. My cousin, I had a cousin who was working for the government at that time, and uh so he was able to buy a ticket for me to visit home. My mother was still alive. So since I moved to Kenya, I had just gone back a few times because it is expensive to go. And uh the other thing I was I was also busy with the studies. Yeah, yeah, and so that's the kind of village where my people are right now, and uh is is is cut off from everything. Actually, it when you are in Puchela and someone you ask, where's so and so? And whoever he you're asking has come to Juba, they will say he has gone to South Sudan. Or if he's in Ethiopia, they will say he has gone to Ethiopia. So they're like in between there, they are not Ethiopian, they are not South Sudanese. He's gonna see us, or he has gone to Ethiopia. Then you ask them, Where are you? We are just in between because Puchala is cut off from everything.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

No electricity, no electricity, no running water, no running water. Where would you what would you drink?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

We there are some NGOs that uh dug bubbles and uh there is hand pump, provided those kind of pumps in many villages.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

It was over uh open fire, over fire, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Get the firewood now with the three stove, yeah, put the three stones together and create an American will say it in 21st centuries.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yes, and the the your house was or your hut?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

What was it's a hut, it's touched grass with mud walls. Exactly. And dirt floors. There's a way they they they smear it down and make it look a bit even and uh yeah, but it's dust issue.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah. A lot of our audience is interested in administrative refugees, and that's where I thought it'd be particularly interesting for them to hear from you as somebody who lived in a refugee camp, could love refugee camp, one of the biggest in the world, Kenya. And can you just describe life in a refugee camp? Again, people will oftentimes think of you know very bad conditions, very temporary situations and stuff like that. But people live for years and years, maybe up to 17, 20 years in a refugee camp, grow up in those refugee camps. So it becomes a community. Maybe you can just describe what that looks like a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Well, yeah, there's no worse thing than living as a second citizen. And that's the kind of life everybody who is in a refugee can live, because you don't have right to anything. And uh you're at the mercy of someone always. So Kakuma is because that's where I lived for three years. Kakuma is a semi-desert place, and uh it doesn't rain there often, and you don't actually see a green thing. It's just desert. Everything is just difficult, and even the food that UN provides is always not enough. And actually I remember we used to run out of food sometime even five days before the next the next food distribution. And when you run out of food like that, there's nowhere you can you can go and ask for any food because even your neighbors receive the same ratio you received, and so all you have to do is just wait. And and so we would go to bed on a empty stomach almost every month. We would go to bed without anything for at least five five days or more. And uh and it's difficult because I remember standing in lines waiting for food for hours or days. Sometimes we would even sleep on open ground in the line, waiting for distribution next day. Because if you moved out of that line, tomorrow you will come when the line is I don't know, 500 meters or 100 kilometers away, and you will not get your food that day. So we have to line up the the eve to food distribution, and we would sleep on that line in the night in open uh open ground, and it's very tough life in the camp. And uh the worst thing with Kakuma, the host community were not also friendly with people. And um now the other thing we were given beans, dry beans by UN, and we were not supplied with firewood to cook to cook the beans. They would give maybe two sticks or three, and then maybe that that long. Yeah, and and and and and you cannot expect those three sticks to cook that beans. Yeah. So what we used to, and we want we were told very clearly that you you should not go out, leave the cam like 500 meters from the cam. You should not go 500 meters beyond the b bey beyond the camp. If you go beyond that, whatever happened, UN is not responsible. And so so what we used to do to preserve those sticks so that we would use them the next day, we realize if you live alone, things will be so tougher. So, what we we used to do, we form groups and we we put all our food together and uh and and we share together. So, in that way we can we can manage to minimize because we put everything together and we decide like how much we need to cook. More efficient, yeah. Sure. So so we would boil beans, boil beans when it's about to boil, we get it out of fire and uh pour the water somewhere and take a bottle of soda, smash the beans, yeah, then put it back on fire with that water, add salt, and then get it out. At first, it tastes horrible, but we got used to it because that's the only way we can you cannot cook it until it is ready, since there's no firewood. There were a lot of challenges that we faced in that camp. And it is not only that camp, every refugee camp in the world. People face different challenges, but food is very common challenge that people faced all over. And um, it's just tough. Sometimes I look back to that, I'm like, how are those people still there today, surviving? Because that camp was opened up in 1992 when uh the Ethiopian government fell to the rebels, and uh the rebels took over in Ethiopia in 1991, and the new government did not want refugees in Ethiopia, and they forced everybody out of Ethiopia, and people walked from Ethiopia all the way to Kenya. Thousands and thousands of them died along the road. And uh and then the the few that originally in Kenya started, I mean, UN started that camp with them. And uh and that there are people who are born in that camp and they've never come home up to today. Like they were born there, they grew up there, they got married there, there and and and I kept asking myself, how how do these people put up with everything here? Because I I tried and so tough on me. I I mean I couldn't. And that's why I left the camp in 2003. Because life is just we do it, there's no electricity, and uh living in a group also helped a lot because we we were young men who are you know trying to get more out of school, like get education, and uh so we would we would in the night when we just finish eating before it becomes so dark, because when it when when it is dark, you cannot do anything, so people just go to sleep. So we would play games, we'd sit together, and uh someone would pretend to be an officer from maybe United Nations and someone from another department or UN, and they would come want to talk to the refugees, kind of a game, you know. So it would be someone would be speaking in English, then I would translate them in our local language, and would just laugh. I mean, then we go to bed. And uh yeah, those are some of the things we used to comfort ourselves with, just to keep going. But life in the camp is tough. So tough.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Was there did you receive any kind of schooling in the camp?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

I did because um the three years actually I did not finish the third year, but uh my two years and few months that I was there, I I really appreciated that because yeah, I that that that short time in school helped me later when I went back to school. Yeah. It really helped. Was there was there church in the canton? There was, there was, and that that that was a good thing again, because we again the the we had a local church that because we were many, we when we we got there, I found also some other families from my tribe that were there. Some of them I didn't know. And uh and and in the camp, people live kind of in a community on the tribal things, you know, people like to know where their tribe tribe met uh usually because uh people like helping each other. That's another good thing we used to help each other, and so there was a local church that uh all my tribe were going to and uh and and I became part of it. Not in a sense that I was doing anything, but just uh a member in that church, yeah. And and that also helped to encourage uh people, and uh so we the preachers used to preach no words of encouragement and just keep us going.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Yeah, yeah. Do you did you see any ministry uh happening in the camp that would help us to even know how we could be helpful with ministry right now?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Well, um when when that's Middle East Reform Fellowship came, they they also they they also helped those churches in the camp. And uh of course they they were working with the Presbyterian Church of Sudan. Okay, and uh these some of these local churches in the camp were also part of the Presbyterian Church of Sudan. Okay, like the one that I was going to. And uh and so they were also they also train uh people from the camp. Like when they send out messages that they need people, they will also send these messages to the camp. And people would come from the camp to mouth, be trained, and then they go back and also uh train others in the camp and maybe become better preachers in the camp. And and and that that to me was also a good thing because when these people go back and preach the right doctrines and the right message in the camp, I mean, you can see how um how helpful that is to the to the people who are going or undergoing tough life and who need hope, they need something to hope in. And so if if if the right doctrine, I mean the right preaching is right message is presented to them, they are pointed to Christ and they put their hope in him. I I think that's what they need. And and so, yeah, mouth really helped with that. Train these people from the camp, send them back to the camp.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

I know that a lot of the UN camps, they don't allow they're called proselytizing in the camps because you're dealing with a vulnerable population, and so they don't want you know different religious groups coming in, and there's just a lot of restrictions in that regard. Would the churches be made up of would like even the church leadership then be made up of refugees themselves?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Sure, the churches that we had there were run by refugees completely. Yeah, UN had nothing to do with that. And uh because actually UN was kind of you know, they have their own compound, okay, which is which was actually way far from the main camp. Yeah, and so they only come to the camp when they had when they had distribution of food, or they have they want to meet with people, they just want to see what's going on, and but most of the things they do it within their so the churches were run by the refugees themselves. Okay, and uh they were organized by refugees. Actually, the Presbyterian Church, churches that we had in the camp that were connected to the Presbyterian Church back home. And yeah, although we were in the camps, but somehow we were still under the main church back home. And uh, yeah, we were running things by ourselves. Yeah, I know even up to those kind of restrictions when it comes to, you know, some yeah, someone comes from outside and wants to do something with the refugee, they will always want to know what are your intentions, yeah, yeah, like what kind of NG are you working for, what are your mission visions. But yeah, but when it comes to church from what I saw in in Kakwamount, uh there are no restrictions on how church runs things in the company. I mean in the car.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Um can you give us a particular wonderful day that you had in the camp that comes to mind a special day? Special day in the camp. Maybe the day you left.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

I think being with my friends in the camp, playing those kind of games, well, were really things that I look back to and I'm like, wow, those were great days because they keep us, I mean, forget about everything that was going on around because we laugh together, we know we joke, and uh yeah, but apart from that, and the school, of course, that that I was attending, also summer when I'm in class would kind of make me forget about what is outside and concentrate on first. And uh yeah, but because there were a lot of things that were going on in the car. One incident that we had, my neighbors, because we were given plots, like groups were put in groups and given a plot number, and this is your this is your plot. And my neighbor was was maybe about 100 meters from where my tent like like actually, like what you saw there. Uh-huh. But but now the different was we were given small, like one was single. Singles, yeah. Yeah, you're given just small one, and your tents will really be a small thing. And uh so their house, these were six guys living together, and there were there were all sorts of Denise. So they had their two houses facing each other, and they were they were sharing everything. There were six of them. It was in the evening around 8 p.m. They were eating, you know, like in our culture here in Sudan, we like eating together. We put we put the meal in in in front and everybody ate from that big place. And so they they were eating that meal in the evening. Two Turkanas. Tulkanas is the the whole community. While these guys were eating in front of this house, Turkana came from from this uh other house. One from this side, another one from this side of the house. And at a close range, they just opened fire on them and shot everybody. That scared me so much because uh I don't even think that these Turkana know the names of these guys. They were just refugees who are trying to survive, and they just opened fire on them. Some of them died right there, others ran, they kept falling in in the camp while they were running. Others were picked up in the morning, and and that's one incident among many that happened in the camp. And yeah, just like I said earlier, that uh you live like it's not even a second citizen, like you don't have any right in anything. And so when that happened, no one is no one no one can be hold accountable. And and so yeah, they I think there were there were a lot of sadness than happiness in the camp.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

And that's why I find it a bit hard to pick a day that I I loved apart from when we were making jokes with my friends in the night, just forget about everything that's going on around them.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

When team visit refugee camp yesterday here in Jubba, uh, does that bring back memories for you when you go there?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Exactly. Exactly. Everything that I saw there is is almost everything that I went through in the camp. You know, you saw the abnoib and pit latrims, it was physical are full, yeah. And when rain comes, just watch it over all over. Yeah, that's the kind of light that we live in and just bring back memory of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

And I think that oftentimes when we think about refugees, people who all of us who don't can't even experience that life oftentimes think of people, maybe homeless people or whatever, but uh refugees are oftentimes people not all that different than us who maybe lived in a house and now have been chased from that home. For instance, I I was asking about these refugees here in Juba for lunch. We were talking about that. I was asking our friend Patrick here about whether they could they have to stay in the camp or could they actually you know try to resettle? And he said, well, they could, but the house that they lived in has been occupied, has just been taken over, and um, and so now they're living in squalor, horrible conditions, not cared for, while you know their persecutor has basically taken over all their possessions, and uh, so there's just a lot of injustice in in that it doesn't get much more truly diagonal than the refugee population because you even talked about in Kakoma. You couldn't even, I'm sure you guys would have been happy to grow your own crops and work, and but there's you know you're not. Without any of the opportunity to do that, so therefore the particularly for the saints who are in those places the church to minister to them seems seems like that would be God glorified to minister to one another.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah, you know, they no one chooses to be a refugee. And um people go to the camps because they are forced to. And for example, the people we visit yesterday, you see what they are going through, they really want to get out of their life. But they are pressing between two rocks. Like there's no way. And uh, like Patrick says, uh those whose whose homes are occupied by others, they fear for their life. When they come back and these people realize they're still alive, they would be killed so that these people continue to live on their properties. And and so there's no choice. No choice. What can they do? Nothing, because even the government is not ready to help. And some of these people actually who are living on their properties, government offices. Some of them, yeah, they're soldiers and uh young roles, and and and the government cannot do anything. And so they are left with any without a choice.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Um, as you reflect on your life, what the Lord has done, what the Lord has brought you through, how he has guided, you know, maybe a little bit of the life of Joseph, you know. Very difficult things, and yet you're you're very excited where you are on the opportunities the Lord is opening for you and serving his kingdom. Um, how does that how does that motivate you to share him with your family and friends, others, you know, as a as a witness for him?

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Yeah, you know, I earlier on before we we came here, I I I share with you that I I I'm thinking of writing down my my my history and uh and maybe it can be of great help to someone out there who may read it. Because I I know I'm where I am today, not because of my smartness or of my hard working, but to all by God's grace. And I know God has a plan and because I don't deserve anything that God has done in my life, the education that he has given me. I know there are so many people who would have wanted to get that same kind of education, but God put me through that, and and I think he has a bigger plan than what I maybe planned for myself. And uh and while I was going through all that, he kept passing me from one hand to another of my sure Christians who happened to mentor me uh spiritually, and I look back to all that and I really thank God for that. And so being where I am today, uh one of the teachers in a theological college, and also be able to come here with you know with uh OPC ministers to see what's going on in the cam and give even just a word of encouragement. Me, I I see that as part of maybe what God wants me to do. Because I know I know what these people are going through, because I went through that and I know exactly what they need. They don't they need food, of course, but there's something more they need beyond just food, and that's the word of God. And uh to be able to give that back to them. I I thank God for that. To be able in a to be in a position that I can give them a hope from the Bible. Uh, I'm grateful for God for giving me the knowledge and opportunity to do that because the problem that we have in South Sudan cannot be solved by anything apart from the Bible. It's the gospel because the hope that we want and we are longing for is not in this life, but in the next life, and that comes from the Bible. To be part of that, I'm grateful to God.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

That's great. Yeah, it was uh so encouraging yesterday as we had the opportunity to be in the camp here in Juba, on one of the camps, and to have Pastor Charles, Pastor James give words of encouragement from God's Word in the way that God, that the hope is in the Lord, regardless of our circumstances around us, and how even the one lady was saying, you know, what a blessing it was to her, like, well, my stomach is full. Um, and then and this will keep me full for the next three years. Yeah, but that's and uh and that they want that they need more of this, sure, and which says to me they need more trained leaders, sure, even feeding them from God's word in his camps. That's what we're here in South Sudan is to encourage the Sudanese Reformed Church and see how we can the OPC's work and Knox theological school of theology, excuse me, can even be used to to train up more church leaders who are trained well uh in the in a in a solid theological institution uh that that there could be good pastors who are to come back here feeling shit in this place.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Sure. And actually just to hunt on that, no the Ast refugees of course they need food, they need medical, they need food shelters, they need education. But above all these, gospel is the most important and most needed. Just to come and give them what of encouragement like did yesterday, or Charles and James did yesterday, was more than more than anything, more than even just giving them money. Because you there was a man who was seated in the in that congregation yesterday who had lost his wife during this this civil war. And even he has a uh a wound on his leg, he was shot, he had a bullet wound. He he needed someone to you know hold his hand when he's walking, and he's taking care of his children right now. He does not have any family to help him take care of the children, and he's doing all that, he's playing the role of the mother and also of the father. And he also needs, he himself needs need care, yeah. And so to encourage someone like that, that point them to Christ, that their hope is in Christ, I think is all that they need because you know you can give money, food, and all that, but will that guarantee uh after this life? I mean, will that help after this life? No, it won't, because when you die, you die, and that is it, you are cut off from the things of this world. And uh the most important is how are you going to live your eternal life? And and so giving them what of encouragement and pointing them to Christ is all they need. And and you could hear yesterday testimonies that we need we need this not just once, but uh often when you're coming back and do this because that's all we need. Like the the man from Bantu who said just quoted, my stomach is full. It is so encouraging because you're pointing them to the real helper.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Right. And a re and a true citizenship that can't be taken away or then chased away from.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Exactly, because right now they are denied their citizenship right. Yeah. They're citizens of this nation, but they they don't they don't have any right. They are living in the camp in a very terrible situation within their country. And uh do they call themselves, I mean, would they be proud to call themselves Lanese? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

So yeah, pointing them to the right citizenship in heaven, where no one, nothing, not even anger, not not even death will snatch that out. Yeah, is is all they need.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Yeah, that's great. Pakuj, I failed to ask you about your your family, your immediately family. Are you you married or yeah, yeah, I I just got married.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Oh, okay. Uh he says with big smile. Yeah, I just got married and uh last year, 5th, 27th. Okay. And uh we'll make a year. Yes, 27th. This month is coming up again. Yeah, so still a young family. Yes. Trying to what is your wife's name? She's called Rebecca. Rebecca, that's wonderful. Uh yeah, I I realize also that's another seminary learning every day. Yes, trying to represent Christ as the head of the family. A lot of struggle. I need grace for that because a lot of time I realize I'm I'm insufficient, and uh there are things I realize I I shouldn't have done and already done them. Why did I do that? Um yeah, I kind of I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

Yeah, basically. Being married and having children and teenagers and young adults is very sanctifying for us and humbling. So it's good. So, final question. A lot of people will hear this podcast, maybe somebody's on their way home, mostly driving home from work, listening to this podcast. How can how can our listeners be he praying for you? Maybe even even tonight when they sit down for dinner.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Well, there are a lot of things that I need prayers for. Uh first, just with my immediate family, I wanted to be that kind of a husband that represents Christ. And uh I need grace to do that because I don't have power to you know make myself that kind of a husband to my wife. Yeah, I I wanted to I want my family to be an example. You know, I I come from a community where polygamy is is the the order of the day, and um almost everybody in my family has more than one wife, and uh including my father himself. Yeah, my father had two wives. And uh and and I decided to you know stick to the Bible and uh and and obey the commands, the Bible. And and I want I want my family to be an example in the community, but I I cannot do that because I don't have power in myself to do that. So I want if to pray for me, to you know, let God give me grace to represent Him in my family and also in the community. Yeah, and secondly, also the ministry down here in South Sudan. South Sudan is a virgin land, and um and people have suffered for so long, and everybody's looking for something to put their hope in. And uh we yeah, you need to pray for South Sudan, pray that the the right messengers would arrive earlier to give the right message so that people would be pointed to Christ and not to you know material things like the way Pentecostal does here, because Pentecost Pentecostal is a big challenge to the right gospel in Africa. And um people are lied to and uh and and they are given false hope, and and but we need people to be given the right hope and they are pointed to the right savior, and so pray that God may send the right messengers, but like what is going on right now with OPC ministers trying to to form some kind of you know relationship with the church down here, and and so yeah, pray for this ministry to make an impact in the life of so many churches, not only as RC, but so many other churches within the country, so that uh people are pointed to the right savior and to do material things. Yeah, and also pray for peace in South Sudan because without peace and security, uh there will be nothing that would be done. Because, like, for example, right now outside Jubilee, you it is impossible to go to some places just because there's no security. But if we had security, I mean it would be easy to you know go and evangelize all these other villages outside Jubilee. And we cannot do that if there's no security. So pray for security, pray for peace that uh God will I I know there's no absolute peace in this in the in this world, but uh we need we need security. I mean we need peace. Situation that people will move freely, people will do you know the work of ministry freely without looking behind their shoulders and yeah. So pray for peace and security is also done. Pray for our leaders so that they realize that uh there's a leader who is above them. Uh because Christ is the ultimate leader, he's the ultimate king, king of kings, and lord of lords. So pray that they may realize that they are not the supreme, but Christ is above them, so that they may do things in the fear of God. Because when leaders don't fear God, they will do whatever is going on in possible. But if leaders have the fear of God, do the right thing. Well, they're not there's someone who's above them. Pray for Satsubah.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah. But Cooch, thank you for your willingness to share with us what has done through you and in your in your life, and your testimony of his grace, and uh even the opportunities that are ahead as you uh see these great needs in this part of the world. And hopefully this is a this conversation is a blessing and encouragement to our listeners as they think about and become more aware of of the needs of ref both refugees, but also even uh East Africa and the need for uh faithful uh teachers, preachers of God's word and the role that you're playing in that.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

So thank you again. Thank you so much. And actually, I think I I think I need to thank the uh the OPC church in the in the state for allowing you people to come to South Sudan. Because I know there are a lot of people outside there who would not even dream of coming into South Sudan because of the security and all that. And uh thanks your families, your wives for allowing you people to come to South Sudan because without them allowing you, I don't think you would have been here. Your families and your church, it is a great sacrifice to just come here in the midst of all this that is going on here and give hope to the people. That is a great blessing. We owe you for that.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Thank you so much. Well, it's a privilege and uh thank you for the role that you play, you have played in making the connections here in South Sudan and and uh moving those for us. So that brings us to the end of our podcast, and thank you for joining us and catch us next time on the Reform Deacon Podcast. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.