SPEAKER_01 0:00

I feel like as a deacon's wife, we may not hear all of the small details that are confidential about the cases that deacons are working with. But I think there is an increased opportunity of hearing about some of the non-confidential needs that arise. And that's where it's the families of the deacons step in, even if it's just, and I say just, but this is very important, just praying for the people who are struggling or need extra help at any given moment.

David Nakhla 0:36

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I'm Trish Dugan. You've probably heard me on this podcast a few times before, but today I'll be wearing two hats, both host and producer. Today I'll be talking to a few deacons' wives, Rachel Engelthead and Michelle Martsky from Bethel, PC, in Wheaton, Illinois. Rachel's husband Tony has served as a deacon for about nine years, and Michelle's husband, Jason, for about 10 years. Welcome, Rachel and Michelle. Thank you for being here. Thank you. There's a clear directive to deacons' wives in 1 Timothy 3.11. We thought we'd ask a few seasoned deacons' wives about their experiences in order to encourage other wives. I personally have an interest in this subject. My husband Rich has served as a deacon in the OPC for about 22 years. So I'm going to start with asking kind of a basic question that I think has an obvious answer, but I think maybe a deeper one. Is daddy at church at a meeting tonight ever an issue that makes the kids or even you wish he wasn't serving the church? I know I had moments myself of feeling a little overwhelmed. It's dinner time. We just finished, the dishes are piling up. And my husband packs up his computer and his bag and says, okay, I'm off to a deacon's meeting. And I'm left there with my four kids just looking at a mountain of work in front of me. And I think part of what helped me was just focusing on Christ and the bigger purpose for what he was doing, rather than he's just off to a meeting for work. So I wondered if you had those same feelings, maybe, and how you explain to your kids what daddy's doing when he leaves. I'll start with you, Rachel, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

I would I would say the deacons meetings are not really an issue with the children at our home. They do on occasion, if we're hosting something and it cuts into like their playtime after school, yeah, and they have to come home early, have complained and wanted someone else to host it, um, because then it is affecting their time. Yeah. But other than that, dad's commitment to deacons meetings have not affected them in too big of a way. Yeah. Well, and my husband actually cooks dinner. He really likes to cook. So he cooks dinner. And so when he's home, they get to see him at dinner time. And so he'll cook them dinner, and then he gets to eat dinner with them, and so they get to enjoy that time with him. And then they typically go to bed a little bit earlier than most kids' age. And Bethel's church meetings usually don't start till seven. So he's not missing out on much of their evening. Yeah. Uh, so they just have story time and bedtime with mom then.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

How about you, Michelle?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I would say that the again meetings themselves have not been a burden for a family. Sometimes I'll have to say no to some things because he'll be away at a church meeting, but that it's not every week that I'm every time that they meet that I'm saying no to other things. And as for the kids, my husband works from home. So they see him a lot between when they get home from school and then when he goes off to his meetings. So, um, in a way, it's almost a way for him to get out of the house and to um see some other people besides us. So I would say the meetings themselves aren't a burden. And something about Bethel's situation with deacons is we have we are very blessed to have many deacons. And so the burden of work, I think, gets shared across several men. I think at one time we had seven deacons. I'm not sure where we're at right now. Um, so as far as going and visiting and helping that uh people, that burden hasn't been too heavy on my husband either. So that's in a way, in our situation, the meetings themselves have not been too much of a burden. So we're blessed in that way.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah, that's great. I think I feel the same in some ways. My husband traveled a lot in one of his peer previous jobs when the kids were little. And so I think I felt like it was sort of the usual, but I do remember me feeling a little resentment. And then, you know, just because here's an yet another thing that he's committed to that he has to do. But you know, that refocus in this is Christ's work, this is what he needs to be doing, and my way of helping him and therefore the church is to support him in the work that he's doing as a deacon. And so that was that was a reminder I had to say out loud maybe a few times.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Um we have had similar conversations at our house about that.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

You and your husband. Yeah. Yeah. The the refocus. And then I guess it also spills into when they're actually gone, say, on a Saturday for a full day to help someone move or to do something at the church that, you know, where they're trying to work on maintenance projects and other things like that. I feel like there were times that I I can't necessarily go because when you have little kids, you know, that becomes more of a burden to them. And so for me, it was I need to be home with the kids. And there were times that I wanted to go help. And so I think as the kids got older, for me, it became kind of I think, in a sense, a training mechanism for the kids. They would go to these work days, they would go to these, you know, to help somebody rake leaves. And I think it sort of gave them in a way to show them, not just in words, but in deed, that, you know, they're helping somebody. And this is what you do when you're a Christian. So I think it was great to see them watch their dad interact with other people.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

We had an opportunity to help prepare someone's home who was moving and selling their home and then moving into an assisted living facility. And it was at one point when my husband was sick and wasn't able to do the physical labor. So I went out to the house a lot and my children came with me. And so they were around a lot of the work for that particular job. Um, so they do come to some of the things when they're able to. Um, if they're actually going into someone's house when they're around, they don't usually go just because of the privacy with the situations. Yeah. But in this instance, the the person wasn't there because they were moving. And so we would go take care of the home, just us. And so they came to a lot of that. Or if there's things at church, they do come to those for other events.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

I feel like as a deacon's wife, we may not hear all of the small details that are confidential about the cases that deacons are working with. But I think there is an increased opportunity of hearing about some of the non-confidential needs that arise. And that's where it's the families of the deacons step in, even if it's just, and I just say just, but this is very important, just praying for the people who are struggling or need extra help at any given moment. Sometimes the needs are more widely known in the church. So those are ways that we have gotten our kids involved with, I guess, serving the church to say, you know, somebody's been really sick right now and they need our prayers every night. And so that has been a way that our my children, I have an eight-year-old daughter and a six-year-old son, they have gotten involved, even just praying, or next time they see them at church, they'll say, Oh, the person we've been praying for is back at church. Isn't that great? If they've been away. And so I feel like it's connected them to the church to know that people are struggling, but God answers prayer, and we can love them even just by being a friendly face and greeting them and saying how happy we are to see them again. Or so that has been the a way that our kids have connected with the some of the diaconole work that has gone that goes on behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

That's awesome. Rachel, you mentioned that your husband had been ill. Can you talk about that a little bit? You know, it turning the tables. The the deacon now has a need. How did that work for your family? And what did you see in the deaconate that sort of helped you out of that situation?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

So in 2019, my husband got a really rare autoimmune condition and was unable to do pretty much anything in our home. It affected his muscles pretty heavily. And so he was he went from like being really strong and working out in the gym every day to unable to walk up a flight of stairs without stopping and couldn't even put his own socks on. And that was really challenging for our family, especially for him as the head of our home and the provider for our family, to now not be able to like physically capable of doing those things. Looking back, seeing the way God was carefully planning for that for our family, though, he made sure that we were prepared. My dad retired before that happened. So whenever I needed help and my husband was getting a treatment, they came because they were not working. And uh, we had been in the church long enough that we knew a lot of people in that church and trusted a lot of people. And people called and said, Can we bring you food? Can we take your kids for a night? Michelle called and said, What day are you working? I'm going to come clean your home for you. Just so many people and people that you know I didn't even expect to come and help me. Some people that I barely even knew was like, every Tuesday, I'm gonna come take your kids so you can eat dinner with your husband alone. And came and take took my kids every Tuesday, picked them up from me from daycare. She met me in the parking lot, took them home, and I would come pick them up two hours later. And my kids so would go see her at church and say, Remember when we came to your house? And I just like such special things that they did for our family when we were in need.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

And I mean, my husband doesn't have a manual labor job, so he was still able to work. You know, I've never been so thankful for health insurance was those years. Uh, and he had a great doctor, he's doing great now. But, you know, it just was it was hard for our family. And it's not something that will ever go away. It's always on the back of my mind that it might come back. And being in, you know, the the deacon's role, it really changed our uh view of chronic and long-term illness. Like it doesn't go away, and there are going to be long-term needs, and people who are dealing with something like that, like they get really good at hiding what is going on. And sometimes you need to pressure them into letting you help them.

unknown 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Yeah, I was gonna say, I I bet in all of this, as hard as it was, um, there are lessons that you take away from it on how to be more merciful to others and you don't know what the person sitting next to you is feeling in that day. So be kind, but be kind because you are a worker for Christ. You are uh, you know, you you live in service for Christ. I think a lot of times for me, I'm putting away ideas for later. Oh, that was super helpful when they came in, you know, somebody cleaned my house after one of my kids was born. Wow. Okay, that was super helpful to me. In turn, that goes in my database for you know, for later sort of thing. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

We actually just had a deacon's conference, and Michelle was like, if all of our men are gonna be away, why don't we all get together for brunch? And I was like, Oh, that's the best idea ever. She had all the wives and their families over, and it was such a relaxing morning, just potluck brunch. We all went to Michelle's house, the kids played like a dream, and the wives got together and chit-chatted, and it was so nice. What a way to support each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yeah. What a great idea. Had you seen that done before, Michelle, or is that just your thought of like, I'd like some company? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

I as you were saying, when your husband is gone, especially overnight, it can sometimes be a long day. And we have several elders and deacons' wives with kids. And I thought, well, might be a nice way to have an outing first thing in the day, just to get out, do something while dad's away. So yeah. Um, and I know my kids love to just hang out with their church friends.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

And I love breakfast. So it was all it was uh it all came together. And being in the deacons or elders among that group, it's not like I think they all enjoy each other's company, but it's um a group that you uh that are put together with, not one that you necessarily chose. And I feel like that having camaraderie and increased fellowship among that group of people is um important to help them feel as if they're acting as a church body and not just individuals or corporate partners, you know, it's it's a family. And so to foster as much feeling of family as we can, I think is a good idea to do among church leaders.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

That's great. Let's talk a little bit about in a general way, how have you seen yourself as aiding your husbands in different ways? Say hospitality or watching someone else's kids or going with him on a visit. Can you give any examples of that or talk about how you felt like that was something you could do in service to the church?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

One specific example that I can easily talk about is I've recently been going through my home and was looking for a good charity that I could support with what I'm purging from my home. And one of the local charities here, I was dropping some things off and kind of trying to find out a little bit more about their process. And they have this voucher system where they can they allow people to shop. And he was mentioning that local churches could sign up to use the voucher system and send people over. And I was like, tell me more about this. Oh, yeah. My husband's a deacon. I might need to send him over here to get my church signed up. So when I find about things, you know, as I'm out in the community, where can my church have resources for people in need that maybe my husband wouldn't have known about so easily, you know, because he goes to work every day and he's not out in the community doing all the things that I'm doing. Can I bring that information to him and the deacons so that they can use it to serve the members of the church who have needs? Yeah. And then I don't know what the needs are, but they can use that information to help people.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Yeah. That's great. What a great source for helping people. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Yes, we're still working on that one. So hopefully it pans out.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Michelle, any thoughts? What comes to mind for me, I think, is that sometimes I sometimes serve as a sounding board for some communications, not particulars. That would, I don't know people's personal details, but if there's a a phrase or maybe a topic that my husband is looking for guidance on, he might run it by me just for a second opinion. Because and sometimes if he's communicating with another female, he might look for a female perspective on how would this be received by a female if I said this.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

That's pretty insightful to think I'm gonna give it to you, or have you know run it by you to see how it's received.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

We had a a single lady in our church need a couple of rides a couple of times, and there were situations where she needed a pickup at her house and then a drop-off at the hospital or pick up from an appointment. And that was not something that I felt comfortable having my husband do by himself. Yeah. And so I went because it it wasn't really appropriate for him to be in her home by himself. And so in that instance, I did go and take care of that. And so, like, and my child came along with me to one of those, the appointment one, because we were just picking her up from you know, the dentist. And so my child came with me and he got to see. We took her out for lunch, and that's great, and you know, settled her back in her home.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Yeah, uh, that's really cool. As a wife, you're hearing things, you know, a need that might be out there, but the deacons aren't aware of. And I wondered if if you felt like, let's have a conversation on the way home about this person that I saw today and and was able to talk to. Is there anything that you can think of that as a deacon's wife has come into play?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

I know that there have been cases when I've talked to people kind of advocating for them to go to the deacons. As Rachel mentioned, sometimes you need to pressure somebody to ask for help. I think sometimes when you're hearing what somebody is going through, and it's been an opportunity for me to say, this sounds like something you are struggling with, that one person to take on helping, they may not necessarily have the gifts that others in the broader church have. So it's when folks open up and share their struggles, that is an opportunity to say, the church would love to help you with this. And the deacons as a body of wise, caring men, I think can connect you to the broader church's abilities to help. Sometimes maybe there's hesitation to go to the deacons because maybe that it seems very formal or maybe as a last resort. But really, I think sometimes it's needed to remind people that the deacons aren't there to be your last resort. You don't have to be in your last leg to finally go to the deacons. You can go to them for whatever you're struggling with. They, I think, will fall over themselves to help you. So it's, I think, seeing the deacons as a resource and advocating for them, for the people to contact them for what they need and get even advice. Like sometimes the deacons just need to provide some guidance or advice, and there's not necessarily a material need at our church. We are blessed with so. Many with diverse abilities represented amongst our deacons that we that they as a body will be able to help you with what you need.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

I've heard Tony say so many times come to us before it's a mountain of trouble. Come to us when we when it's just as like right away, when it's a small problem before it's interest and interest and interest on your credit card debt. You know, like if we can help you before it's a huge problem.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Yeah. We're brothers and sisters in Christ. And just like if somebody fell down next to us, you would pick them up, whether they fell all the way to the ground or whether they just lost their balance. And so I think it's important as deacons' wives to sort of listen and and help. I love what Michelle said about, you know, going to the person and encouraging them to go to the deacon. You know, that they're your friend. They're more than your friend. And that it's going to be not a painful interaction, a gracious, loving one, where it's as if you're going to a family member, a mom or a dad or a sister or something, and saying, I need advice, or maybe I need help.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Before we talked this morning, I went and found this book of church order from the OPC. Yeah. It's an older version, but I don't know if the newer version has it changed. But it says those chosen to this office should be of great faith, exemplary lives, honest repute, brotherly love, warm sympathies, and sound judgment. And I thought, who, as we're talking, I think, who wouldn't want to uh reach out to someone like that? And these men have been chosen because they were qualified in those ways and voted in by the body of the church.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

So as deacons' wives, do you feel like the expectations on you to be a Christian example, serve in the church, nursery, Sunday school, hospitality, child rearing is higher on you? And is it ever a burden? And then if if you do feel like that, how do you deal with it internally?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I feel like, at least from Bethel in my situation, the pressure has not come from the church to say you need to be doing more to serve the church, your children need to behave in a certain way or anything like that. I think the pressure maybe comes from myself to sign up for things. I don't know if that would be different if my husband were a deacon or not. That might just be part of what I like to do. So I would say that the church itself has not expressed any pressure to me, but I tend to naturally just sign up for things.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

I think it could be encouraging to a new deacon's wife. That it may be more perceived than expected. So you're not necessarily feeling like you're living in a fishbowl. I feel a little bit of, you know, doing nursery every six weeks or whatever. I don't get to listen to the sermons. And I've been doing it for, I won't go into how long I've been doing it because that'll give you an idea of how old I am. But um I think I put this pressure on myself that my husband is a deacon. And so I think it would be wise for me to stay on that list so that people see that sort of as an example.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

I also I'm the fellowship committee chairperson currently at our church. So I'm well aware of our church's need for volunteers for things. And I also see that as an opportunity. When my son was born six years ago, I took myself off of every list. I didn't serve in the nursery, I didn't help out with anything. I said no to everything because I had two small children at the time. And that was a season when I was not helping at the church in very many ways. I was going to worship and I was um being served in a lot of ways by others at the church, as my kids weren't being taught by the Sunday school teachers. And other nursery workers held my screaming one-year-old for an hour while I got to sit in the uh in the service. So I think deacons' wives should remember that there are seasons in life. And maybe when you're feeling overburdened with child rearing or work or caring for others who are sick, maybe that's a season when the church steps in and helps you more than you are serving the church. The seasons change, and as you are able to step in and do more, maybe you'll end up doing a lot more and stepping in and helping in a lot of ways as you are gifted. And so I think that the deacon's wife is called to be faithful in all things, and if you should be encouraged to serve in ways where you can be faithful. And so I guess the perception of you must be serving because you're a deacon's wife can sometimes for me from within and not from without. Bethel is a larger church, I think, in the OPC on average. So we do have volunteers, but where people step down, I've always found that there's others who often will step in and maybe find that they are serving in a way that they weren't expecting to serve, but they're also growing and learning, or maybe even feeling that that was a calling from God for them to step in at that time as well. So yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

As we were preparing for this, I was talking to my husband, trying to cover our bases and make sure that I was ready with all of the ways that I had assisted him as a deacon's wife. And he's like, You're home when I have to go to the meetings. You take care of the kids, you feed the kids, you put them to bed. So I don't have to worry about any of those things when I'm gone. You make sure that I remember to go to the meetings on the deacons' nights. When I say that I have to go out and, you know, do a deacon's thing, you don't ask me where I'm going or why I'm going. You let me go and you take care of the things that need to be done at the home. That's all assisting. When I've had a bad day because the meeting was really stressful, you don't press me for details. You sit there and you let me be grouchy or watch TV or you rub my back. That's all supportive of the deacons. That is the way you are supporting my role in addition to whatever other ways you are serving the church. That's all helpful as the deacon's wife. All of that goes unnoticed in the church, but it is also all very helpful to your spouse in a way that helps him serve the church. So even if you don't have a big active role, because it's not your season of life to be taking a big active role, you're helping your husband serve the church, and that's a very necessary part of his job as a deacon.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Yeah. And I think part of the the the calling in Timothy 311, faithful in all things. You know, it's it's not all the big things, sometimes it's the little things. Okay, so I'm gonna end on this one. If a wife whose husband is gonna become a deacon, what advice would you give her? A, if she's on board and excited, and B scared to have him take such a role.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

What came to mind for me uh with this question is that you might be called to be served in unexpected ways that you have never tried before, that have never needs might come up that you have don't know how to deal with, like you just have not experienced dealing with them before. So God will provide for you to help meet the needs of the people as they come to you. So if you have never talked with somebody who has a certain particular need in a certain way, that's an opportunity for you to learn, you to get to know them better, you to pray for them more. And all the help doesn't always have to come all in one day. You can, but it's an opportunity to start walking with people through their journeys. And so I would say to be excited to get to know people better in your church because you will be having more points of contact with people, you will have more and more things to pray about. So your prayer life will be fuller. If you feel scared, I'd say bring that to God because yes, it can be hard to walk with people through hard journeys, but trust that God will equip you to be the helper that he wants you to be, both for the deacon you are married to and also to the people whom you are interacting with and serving each day.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

That's wonderful. I love that. Alongside that, say it's gonna be very rewarding and a lot of work. It's gonna be very rewarding in your personal walk with Christ because it's gonna grow and stretch you in ways that you haven't known yet. You're gonna be alone and you're gonna feel torn because you want your husband home, but he's serving the church. So there's gonna be some selfishness that you're gonna have to work through because you're sharing your spouse, you're doing work at home that other people aren't having to do because their husband isn't gone when yours is. So there's, you know, you're gonna have to work through some of that sharing of him with the church. So you're gonna your spiritual life is gonna grow because of your service with the church for this. You're also gonna, you know, like Michelle said, walk with people and get to know them in a different way than you would have if you weren't serving in this way. And that's gonna be rewarding because you're gonna get to know people on a deeper, more personal level as you're looking for needs in the church and ways that you can connect your church to the community. You're gonna find ways that you can serve and get people help that maybe you wouldn't have known before. And that's rewarding. And it's work, it's a lot of work. But like Michelle said, it's God is going to give you what you need, He's going to give you the strength and the grace that you ask for and that you need every day. He's going to be with you, and he's going to help and support you. And if you could find a deacon's wife that is also working and has similar age children, like I found in Michelle, it makes it so much easier. Michelle's husband and my husband started their diaconal work very closely, and our children are very similar in age. And it is an incredible blessing to have someone to lean on. And when our husbands are gone, if we need, you know, to get together because we're lonely or because, oh my goodness, I just need to get my kids out of the house for a half hour. Can we come over with ice cream or can we meet you at the playground or something? You know, just to have someone who's also going through the same thing you are. If you can find someone like that in your church, or someone whose kids are out of the house and is looking for, you know, like a grandkid relationship that could come over and help you, like someone who's going through it at the same time as you that can be a support system for you would be very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I found that um the other ladies at our church have are always willing to talk about anything. And among our deacons and elders, there's so many ladies who are farther along in their child raising or just their life journeys that can see ahead for me to say, hey, it's you know, this is how it's gonna be. And that's I find there's so much wisdom to be gleaned from the experiences of the other women in the church. That's great. Any last parting things? Anything you wanted to cover that I didn't I guess for me, prayer that as First Timothy 3 11 says, wives will be dignified, not slanderers, sober-minded, faithful in all things. Yes, for me, that covers in the realm of being a deacon's wife, there's always room for improvement in each of those points. And just pray that they would be uh equipped to serve well and to help well and to be kind with their speech and encouraging to others and sober-minded that covers so many big, I guess, swath of your life and your attitude toward others and toward the world. So I guess just prayer that wives would be live out that calling well, or even ask the wives of the deacons in your church for their specific needs. Um I know I would be very touched to be approached by someone to say, How can I pray for you as a deacon's wife? So I encourage you to step into that and ask them personally. That's great.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Rachel, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 36:15

I think what Michelle said, but also if you are praying for your deacon and their families, to let them know that you've been praying for them, whether it's a card in the mail or just catching them on a Sunday and say, Hey, our family prayed for your family this week. It's always so encouraging to hear that someone is praying for you.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

That's awesome. Love all of that.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Well, this gets me thinking more like I hadn't read that first Timothy verse in a long time. Yeah, me too. So that reminded me, oh, there is an expectation for a deacon's wife to behave in a certain way. And I've only ever seen Rachel be that. So she's a natural. Um, Rachel has helped in our church in so many ways. I'm always struck by how personal her care for others is.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

I don't always feel like that. You know, like sometimes I feel like I just am running around church chasing my children, and I'm like, I didn't even get to talk to anybody today. How am I supposed to know what people need when I don't even see anybody? You know, so like, thank you. That's very encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

And a lot of that for you, Rachel, doesn't happen at church, it happens outside of church because the Sunday mornings do get crazy during the week and people need help. You are always stepping in.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

I always think when you feel supported in your service, it makes the service feel easier. Yeah. And that is our job for husbands, but also if we feel supported in our work, which we can be for the other wives on our church's team. But also this for the the larger, you know, deacons' wives support, you know, it is important.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Yeah. Well, thanks again, Michelle and Rachel, for being on the show. And we really hope this has been encouraging for deacons' wives, both those that have been deacons' wives for a long time and those who are just starting out.

unknown 38:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

You're welcome.

David Nakhla 38:25

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reform Deacon podcast.