Bob Keys: 0:00

Think about how you can get the parents and the family members interested in what you're doing and how you're caring for them. Ultimately, it's about the gospel and about encouraging them to come, ultimately, to church, and that may take a long time.

David Nakhla: 0:14

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

John Stahl: 0:33

My name is John Stahl and I am a deacon at Emanuel OPC in Wilmington, delaware. I also serve on the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Thanks for coming back to listen to part two of the episode Real World Cases Long-Term Dilemmas with deacons Bob Keyes, jared Grigg and Lynn Hunter. If you didn't catch part one yet, be sure to go back at some point to listen to that podcast as well. For now let's get to the last two scenarios these men discuss. Let's continue with the next case.

John Stahl: 1:08

Your church calls a one-year intern. Three weeks after he and his family arrive you hear from the pastor the intern's car has permanently died and he's going to pick him up for their weekly lunch. The pastor says nothing about help. You are a big enough church to call an intern, but you have a lower than normal diaconal fund. Other people have had car trouble and while you and the church have offered rides, you've been hesitant to put money into helping people purchase cars because you haven't wanted to lay out bigger sums, thus depleting the fund. But you feel like this is more in the taking care of our pastors category. You know enough to know that a seminary guy with a family who isn't independently wealthy is going to be taxed by this situation. What do you do?

Lynne Hunter: 1:57

First of all, I'll just say it Is this a diaconal matter? This is an intern. He's an employee of the church. If you give money from the diaconal fund, it is taxable because he is an employee of the church. So you have to get your tax accountant out and make sure that you really want to go this direction out and make sure that you really want to go this direction.

Lynne Hunter: 2:29

Second, I would say and Harvest has this there should be a committee on seminary student funds. We have actually two. We have two committees. One is seminary student fund and that's local. And then we have international seminary students, where we have funds those may or may not be taxable if we give them to an intern. So that's where I would start. It's got to go back to your session. Or, if you are like Harvest, you have a set of trustees. They need to review this. Now I'm not saying that the church can't help, but I'm saying that you have to think about all the aspects of it before you start helping, and your trustees or session unless the session has delegated this work to the deacons need to think about this when they hire interns on is can we take care of our pastors? So I'll right away. Tell you I am not in favor of diaconal funds going to interns.

Bob Keys: 3:43

We've run into too many problems with it. I didn't know all that, but I would be in favor of looking for someone that has a used car in the church You're right, bob or a car that they are going to donate at a value of zero and then make sure it gets transferred properly. This is my main way I would do it. It's not a small, small congregation. They have an intern. There's got to be someone there that's got an older car, that can see the need, hear the need and respond to the need with a title and I would pray that that would happen and give this family a car, maybe even two cars. If you can find two people, give them two cars, but again, a young family like this. I tell you, if they can see the church give to a need of an intern, this intern family will be forever blessed. And I just think you've got to find a way to do it.

Bob Keys: 4:42

Lynn, I appreciate your insights, but find a way. Find a way to show them the love of Christ. They have spent two or three years in preparing for this. They've given their life to the gospel and you've got to find a way to help this family. I don't care what you do do it. Talk to your tax accountants. Whatever you've got to do, you've got to find a way to not hurt them but help them. These are your interns, your pastors and a long-term pastor in the congregation, in the presbytery, in the denomination, and so anything we can do to help them, encourage them and bless them, find a way.

Jared Grigg: 5:20

Whatever it is, find the way just my input is I see both sides of this and I, you know I wouldn't be for particularly like if I didn't have the funds. Diagonally, it's a one year commitment from this guy, so I don't know Like I kind of see Lynn's point there If this is a one year thing, like I don't want to. I don't want the guy to have to pay taxes on money that I would give him. Of course we wouldn't, I wouldn't give him money. I did this one time for a guy in our church. He's been there for years, sterling. He had a car situation. He came up here from another state and I didn't know how long he was going to be here. He's actually an intern now, but he had a situation with a vehicle where it just crapped out.

Jared Grigg: 6:04

I have a business where I go through cars like crazy because I do maintenance work and so I got technicians that they burn through cars, so I know how to find cars and do that, and so I kind of was like, okay, well, I can probably do this because it's not super hard for me to figure it out, but I just went through car dealerships and car lights and I ended up getting the guy and we just bought it with you know diaconal funds. It was like a 19 or 2001 or two toyota corolla with with you know 100 000 miles on. It was awesome, right. And the guy was like he wanted 3 000 for it and I negotiated with I said I'll give you cash right now. I got him to come down to you know 2200 or whatever, something like that, and it was like boom, this is easy. So the first step I I think Bob's right Like how do we get the guy a car and how do we cultivate inside of the church if it's a large enough church to do this where people in the congregation can bless that person? And we've had that happen a lot. Like my first car after I was married came from a guy that sold it to me in the church for super cheap and then I think that car's still in the air somewhere.

Jared Grigg: 7:13

So if we can, if we can provide a vehicle in-house, let's do that. If we can't do that, let's figure out how like we can get our minds together with somebody that knows cars or is pretty good and everybody's got a car guy or two in their church where they can kind of help them navigate. A low cost, right, because vehicle, because a vehicle is a means to an end, like we don't need Land Rovers or whatever. I mean they're cool if you can pay for them cash, but like it's a devalued, it's not an investment. Get a car that gets you safely from A to B. That's all you need, right, so you can do your job.

Jared Grigg: 7:40

Particularly because we called this guy yeah, he's had a car problem or the thing died. Maybe he should have known about that. I don't know, maybe that's another discussion that I have, probably with him, but I do want to find a way to make sure that he's able to get to and from session meetings and taking his family where they need to go. I think it's a necessity that he has a car and I think it is on the church on some level to provide that. I would never give the guy money to go buy a car, like I'm not, like that's out, like I'm not giving the guy cash or whatever. But I do think it is our responsibility as a church, if we call him, is to make sure that he's got a reliable transportation to the best that we can.

Bob Keys: 8:18

The taxes to a young man like this, for an intern's salary ain't going to be very high. That's another point that I don't think even the taxes, if it has to be that way, would be that much. But also, pastors oftentimes get car allowances and things like that, and so I'm not sure how to do it. I'm not a tax accountant, but I think there are ways to work this so that there's minimal tax, if any, and ways that you can do it legitimately and properly to aid this family. The other thing that we haven't talked about is their families. Are their families able to help with a used car? Maybe they are and allow the family to help them in this regard, and if they're not, then find a way to do it.

Lynne Hunter: 9:03

Hey Bob.

John Stahl: 9:04

What.

Lynne Hunter: 9:05

It's been mentioned a a number of times, and so I'll just bring up the question how do you get families? We had the scenario number two. Now we we've talked about it in scenario number three. Really, you probably should have said something in scenario number one how do we get families involved?

John Stahl: 9:24

especially ones that aren't in membership.

Lynne Hunter: 9:27

Might be another whole podcast that we need to talk about.

Bob Keys: 9:31

I think you talk to the individuals involved in each of these case studies and see their relationship with their families, talk to them, but you need a relationship with them first before you go with that question.

Bob Keys: 9:44

But I think at some point appropriate point you really need to know who they are if they're not involved in the church and find out what they are able to do and how they're able to help and encourage these people to talk with their families, communicate and see what they really can do and how they can help and then make it clear what ways they can help to these cases, to the people involved.

Bob Keys: 10:09

I think that's where I'd get started, and the goal is to even to get them to come to church. Think about how you can get the parents and the family members interested in what you're doing and how you're caring for them. Ultimately, it's about the gospel and about encouraging them to come, ultimately, to church, and that may take a long time. That's not something you want to do quickly, lynn, but I think these are the kind of questions, the kind of things that I would encourage, and I've done some of that as well Communication, talk, see what their family's like and see what their hearts are like and see if they're receptive to coming to church or helping or whatever they're able to do, and some aren't, and that makes it hard.

John Stahl: 10:52

Whether they're members in the church or outside of the church. I know for us even more recently, when we have call-ins, people calling in for help who aren't members in the church, and we always encourage them to ask their family members, and particularly ones that are in the area that have some kind of relationship with them. And often it's just planting that seed, that thought in their minds. They were either afraid to do it or didn't give a thought, but just encouraging them to take an initiative to talk to their family members has often been the trick for it. They took that initiative and mom and dad were very willing to help, maybe not all the way. They did what they could. All right, I think we're ready to move on to our final case.

John Stahl: 11:47

Karen and Tom are empty nesters and members at your church. They live off their home's equity. Tom struggles with long-term unemployment after multiple layoffs and succession. Karen is trying to start a small business but isn't yet drawing a salary. The couple asks the deacons if they would help with their food, internet and electric bills, just until Karen's business begins to turn a profit. They assure the deacons that they would be happy to give generously to the church once they are back on their feet. Another tricky one. How would you respond?

Jared Grigg: 12:26

Well, first of all, when I read this and there's a lot, there's some things we'll address here, I'm sure, as brothers. But the last part I've had people do this in our church, not necessarily members per se sometimes, but mainly people on the fringes that are saying, well, hey, I'll give back to you, as if it's some sort of bribe or something. I don't like, the we would be happy to give generously to the church once we were back on our feet. Mercy ministry isn't about you giving back. We don't give out donations to people with interest or even them having to pay back. For me, that last part was a little emotional because it's like this is not what diaconal mercy ministry is about. Diaconal ministry is about being the hands and feet of Christ and pointing you to the gospel and coming alongside and working with you in your struggles. I just like when I read this, I'm like, no, this is not about a tit for tat thing. If you need help, let's help, but what this?

Lynne Hunter: 13:24

triggered, jared I think it triggered it in you and it triggered it in me is I have an opportunity to present the gospel and we're going to get deep into this. So I had the same thought about the give generously part, but then backing up and looking at the rest of the scenario is number one. On our diaconate and throughout Harvest Church, there are other men who are very good businessmen. I'm going to ask one or two of them to help get involved to look at this thing holistically, not just their budget, need for food, internet, electric bills but I want to see, is this business that they're trying to start actually even going, gonna go somewhere? You know, we we need to look at the whole thing.

Lynne Hunter: 14:16

Just being a stop gap might be a bad thing. Is what I'm trying to say. Can we help with the food, internet and all that? Yeah, that's the easy part of this, because we can do that for a couple months while we get others involved to look at the whole picture, and by doing it more than one month, it gives us the opportunity to speak the gospel into their lives and to get them back onto the right path about giving generously. We should be giving generously, no matter what.

John Stahl: 14:50

Yeah, I like your point. My question is how do you live off your home's equity? I don't get that?

Bob Keys: 14:56

Oh, I do. The Home Equity Alliance credit is 8% to 9% today, and it won't take long to put yourself in so deep that you'll never have a retirement. You never do that, you never, never do that for daily living. You never do that. And so they're doing everything wrong here. Let's start with Tom. Tom is losing his job often. Why is he losing his job often? I asked that question because I really believe Tom's got some issues with holding a job. What are they? We really need to get to the bottom of what's wrong with Tom in a loving, gracious way to help him. Help him be able to hold on to a job for a long time.

Bob Keys: 15:43

Most employers don't hire somebody for a short time. They want a long-term employee, and so, again, helping them understand how to be a good employee and how to be a desired employee for the company is, to me, one of the first things that need to be done. The second thing is Karen needs to find a full-time job. There's no business here. You know what the average failure rate of a personal business is. The first year 35%. You know what it is in five years 50%. This isn't good that she has a personal business. She needs to find a full-time job as an empty nester. She's got the time. Get a job. Get a good job, get a job with benefits if possible, and get moving. There's plenty of jobs out there, even if it's a low-paying job, get a job and make money. And Tom needs to find a job after the church, or someone in the church helps analyze what he needs to do to hold on to a job, and then he needs to do whatever it takes to do that and he's got to be committed to that.

Bob Keys: 16:49

And again, the home equity line of credit is just. That is just beyond my comprehension. I had to ask what that meant, but once I heard that it really was what I thought it was. What a disaster. They're going to ruin everything they've ever had, because that's normally most people's major line of retirement. At least 50, 60% is their home, and so again, it's just a very, very poor thing for empty nesters to do what they're doing and they need to get back in line with reasonable, wise ways of handling jobs and handling finances and taking care of business. Here it's not about giving them money or giving them food. You do that if you have to for a few months but they need to find work and get out of debt with this home equity line of credit.

Jared Grigg: 17:36

I think there's probably two, you know, with Tom struggling with long-term unemployment. I don't know how long he's been unemployed, but let's say it's a year, two years, maybe it's an extended period of time. So there's probably a character issue in there, like you kind of pointed out, bob, which I would want to encourage my session, whoever his local elder is, to kind of step in and maybe get involved, because there's probably some depression that he's dealing with, because God calls men very early on to take dominion and be fruitful and multiply. That's what men are made to work, and so men find a lot of their. You know, our chief end is to glorify God and enjoy forever, and enjoying him is working in a way, because he's designed us to do that. So when you struggle with long-term employment you're kind of kicking against the grain in God's design, and so when we kick against the grain of God's design, our brains do not function right. So I would want to encourage him to, you know, and as a deacon I would probably be direct with him as much as I could.

Jared Grigg: 18:36

I mean, if this I'm 36, I'm technically still a younger man, kind of coming into that, but let's say this is, this is an older man right, like I would want to encourage him in the faith. That's what the scriptures tell me to do, but I wouldn't want to be to have this conversation with him as well, hey, and I wouldn't want to be to have this conversation with him as well, like, hey, man, like you need to work and then not be afraid to be direct, because I think sometimes you know men talking to men like we struggle in certain ways, being passive, aggressive, or like we don't want to offend somebody's feelings, but it's like sometimes you have to be straight with men and men will respect you for that and they'll love you for that. And a lot of times this is what pulls people out in a lot of ways, it's somebody telling them no, be a man and do this, and that's love.

Bob Keys: 19:19

There's a good verse 1 Timothy 5.8, but if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially his family, he is deceived of the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. And that's a harsh verse. People need to realize they're responsible for their families and they need to work and work hard and be wise. And again, I'd use that verse very carefully but it's a clear verse in 1 Timothy.

John Stahl: 19:46

I use it carefully, but I do use it because the Lord used it in my life. But I do use it because the Lord used it in my life and so I feel like I can, without shame or being on one up on you and I'm telling you this is the way it is, but gently, to tell them this is what the word says. You need to think about it. This is serious business if you're not providing for your own.

Bob Keys: 20:12

Well, I'll ask you to come and speak to if you've gone through it Again. It's just do it wisely and carefully. Always, always, be careful how you use scripture. Don't hurt people, but encourage them in the Lord. Do what's right and wise.

John Stahl: 20:27

Could family possibly come in to play here too? They are empty nesters. That assumes that they did have a fullness at one point, so they have children. So I've encouraged older members to ask their children if they can help if they haven't been right. The children have a responsibility to the parents as they get older, to provide for them. It might seem odd, that might take pride swallowing on the part of Tom especially, but it may need to be done in this case just to help them get by until they're on their feet again.

Jared Grigg: 21:03

I think, one thing to think about too if these children are Christian children, I think if my dad were to call me and say, hey, I need help, like it would be an honor as a son and I would hope that I would be in a situation where I could do that for my, my parents, right, like that's such a beautiful thing for for children to come back and help their parents. You know we have a. We had a situation that that was kind of escalated and I won't get into the details. It's a little bit different than scenario four here with Karen and Tom. But we had a lady that was a little bit older and was struggling and you know her, her children professed the faith.

Jared Grigg: 21:34

They weren't in our church and me and another deacon who who worked pretty closely with them, we were in contact with her son. Hey, what are you going to do in this situation? Like, are you going to step up and do this? I mean we weren't like super, super direct with him, like that, but you know we were direct enough to say, hey, your mom needs help, you need to step up and do it. I don't know where Karen and Tom's kids are, but I'd like to know.

John Stahl: 21:56

Well, I think we had some great discussion today. Thank you for being here, brothers. And these were challenging scenarios and I know I was stimulated by the responses of these seasoned deacons. We hope that our fellow deacons will find our discussion helpful and encouraging as they serve their congregations in the name of Christ.

David Nakhla: 22:18

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website thereformedeacon. org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.