Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello, this is Tim Hopper from the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries and the Reformed Deacon Podcast. It's hard to believe that this month it's been three years since the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries debuted the Reformed Deacon Podcast. The committee has been blessed by it and we hope that you have been too. It may be encouraged and inspired to think about the diaconate in new ways. We know how much responsibility you carry as a local deacon and we want you to feel supported in your work through this podcast. If you've listened since the beginning, you know we've covered a lot of ground. In our 62 episodes. We've chatted with authors, explored real-life cases, examined the doctrinal foundations of the diaconate and heard from many experienced pastors, elders and deacons all related to the role of the local deacon. If you haven't listened to all of them, be sure to go back and catch up.

Speaker 1: 0:46

The list of future diaconal topics seems endless and we're excited for year four and beyond. We'd love to hear from you If you have comments, topic ideas or questions. Drop a quick message to mail at thereformeddeaconorg and you'll receive a high-quality the Reformed Deacon t-shirt. Be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player so you'll never miss an episode, and feel free to like and share with other deacons who you think might benefit for even more resources. Check out the CDM's website, opcdmorg. Thanks for listening. I think as just an overarching aspect of this whole discussion is the opportunity for the deacon to just be a friend of the pastor and just know him and those relationships can differ. You know, maybe sometimes you and your pastor have the same hobbies, sometimes not, and it can be very different in a lot of ways. But an opportunity for the deacon to just know the pastor and be a friend to him and to his wife, welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed deacons.

Speaker 2: 1:54

There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Speaker 3: 2:06

Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast. My name is Chris Cashin. I'm here with Tim Hopper. Tim serves as a deacon at the Shiloh Presbyterian Church in Raleigh, north Carolina, and is a member of the OPC's Committee on Diaconal Ministries. I serve with Tim on that committee Committee on Diaconal Ministries. I serve with Tim on that committee and I'm a pastor of Trinity.

Speaker 1: 2:29

Reformed OPC in Lanham, maryland. Hello, chris, thank you for talking today about this topic. This is going to be a little bit different from ways we've done this in recent days. Anyway, we're not going to have a particular host or someone to interview, but just a discussion with me and Chris about ways that deacons can care for their pastors. I think in some ways this is a good follow-up to our recent discussion about the OPC Committee on Ministerial Care, which is trying to look at ways that at a denominational level, we can serve our ministers. But then there are a lot of opportunities, I think, also for deacons to serve and bless their ministers and their families. So we just wanted to look at some ways that is possible. So I think our question is simple and maybe not considered in this way often but how can and should a diaconate care for the pastor or pastors of a local church? So, setting the scene a little bit, as we think about this question, we do realize there are spiritual needs for our pastors and there will be also needs for mercy and physical care for our pastors. I think in a good situation, the spiritual needs of the pastor should be particularly met and served by the ruling elders of the church, as well as fellow ministers within the presbytery and obviously other friends and connections they may have. But these elders and ministers are especially ordained and equipped for this work.

Speaker 1: 3:51

In the work of what we might call mercy care and diaconal care, the deacons obviously have a great opportunity to care for their pastor and this means and we want to think a little bit outside the box of that today and hopefully delve into some things that might be a little beyond just the most obvious financial needs that a minister might have.

Speaker 1: 4:13

We recognize that pastors may have events in their lives that call for financial assistance you know, the house damaged by a flood or a child having an emergency medical need and circumstances where a pastor may need one-time financial help and hopefully our diaconates are serving in that way and if they're not being able to serve in the way they need, working with our presbytery diaconal committees to help there. But we want to think about some situations potentially beyond that, how a diaconate might care for their pastor beyond and in addition to these financial needs. So we might think about this as sort of baseline care or usual care of normal diaconal things and then some additional things that deaconates and deacons might be able to do as well. That would be added on to that kind of diaconal care, and I'm not sure how often deaconates consider this as a topic and an idea and something for me to think about more as a deacon and hopefully encourage others as well.

Speaker 3: 5:11

Yeah, tim, I think that's right. I have not been in the pastorate that long, but the thought that the deacons would be active in caring, with regard to mercy ministry, for their pastor, I think is something that I just haven't experienced personally, and I think it's something that the deacons of the church should be thinking about and should be pursuing. So let's consider this situation. Reformed OPC of New Beginnings, usa and I don't think that actually exists has called a man fresh out of seminary to be their solo pastor. His name is Dan and now he's Pastor Dan. The Presbytery has approved the call, placed it in his hands, ordained and installed him, and now he's in his first year of his pastorate at Reformed OPC. That may change as we go through this scenario, but that's what we want you to be thinking about.

Speaker 3: 6:13

Reformed OPC has a loving congregation, a solid session and a good group of deacons. So let's just begin to think about some of the ways that the deacons could be thinking about Pastor Dan. Let's start with just his financial support. Tim, the diaconate was not involved in drafting the call to Pastor Dan. Now do you have any thoughts on whether they should have input, whether it be at the congregational level or maybe even at the presbytery level.

Speaker 1: 6:50

I think that'd be a very unfortunate situation for deacons to not be involved at all in that drafting of a call.

Speaker 1: 6:55

In my congregation the session delegates a lot of the financial management and oversight of the church to the deacons. So in that scenario I think it'd be very problematic for this to happen. But even if maybe your treasurer is on the session or someone who's not an officer and the session's only working with the treasurer and not talking to the deacons, I think, apart from just the deacons also being a part of the leadership of the church, I think if you're in a church with a good diaconate which most of us are that your deacons are going to be just very helpful eyes on thinking about a call and being able to evaluate the fitness of the call for providing for the minister and for his family. So I think it'd be unwise from that perspective. But I also just think it's a good and right responsibility of the deacons to be part of the care for their minister in this way. So I would certainly encourage sessions to not overlook that opportunity to involve the deacons.

Speaker 3: 7:58

That's good input and possibly the Presbytery Diaconal Committee at the presbytery level should have some input on that. I don't know that that happens as a matter of routine, but that's another area in which the deacons of the church on the regional level could be involved in that. But actually we're beyond that. With regard to Pastor Dan Tim, do you think that the Board of Deacons should be checking in with Pastor Dan on an annual or maybe other periodic basis to see how he's doing financially, maybe even before the annual congregational meeting?

Speaker 1: 8:34

Yeah, I think again, another great opportunity for deacons.

Speaker 1: 8:37

I think this is a great area for the diaconate and the ruling elders to also partner together in serving the minister. I think whenever we talk about financial issues and financial needs, those are rarely separated from spiritual considerations. Among other reasons, jesus talks so much about money and how we think about money and not being controlled by money. I think it's a good opportunity for both the ruling elders and the deacons to check in with the minister and understand if his call is providing for him and his family and what that looks like. I think could take a number of different approaches, but maybe you have a pair, a deacon and a ruling elder, who just make that their regular habit to try to check in and speak with the minister. Or I think it could be worked out a number of ways check in and speak with the minister, or I think it could be worked out a number of ways. But often our diaconates are just very grounded and wise, and financially wise men would be very well equipped to help understand the situation.

Speaker 3: 9:35

Again, good advice, and I know that things change. We might think that the call was sufficient as a man comes, but once he's there, we can always be checking in on him to make sure that our thoughts actually turned out to be accurate, as he actually lives in that area.

Speaker 1: 9:56

Yeah, absolutely. I think, as just an overarching aspect of this whole discussion is the opportunity for the deacon to just be a friend of the pastor and just know him. And plus, at our church with two pastors and consider them both friends, and those relationships can differ. You know, maybe sometimes you and your pastor have the same hobbies sometimes not new, it can be very different in a lot of ways. But an opportunity for the deacon to just know the pastor and be a friend to him and to his wife, outside of needing to think about this as kind of a formal diaconal task, just to have a sense of his life and how he's doing, I think it's a good opportunity.

Speaker 1: 10:38

You know, I think ruling elders should be seeking to do the same thing, but the relationship between the pastors and the ruling elders can be different just because they are working together in a different capacity and I think with that there's just an opportunity for deacons to have a different relationship than the ruling elders have, neither bad nor good, but I think a complimentary relationship. So I would encourage that, if that's not happening, get to know your pastor. This reminds me I'm supposed to reply to my pastor and tell him when I can get lunch. I've been neglecting that. Another topic that often can come up is the pastor filing tax returns, which in the United States in particular, where most of our ministers are, can be quite complicated, and for ministers it can be especially complicated. The tax laws around ministers are somewhat bizarre. Do you think deacons have a role in helping pastor figure out how to complete his tax returns?

Speaker 3: 11:34

I think that would be great. I'm an attorney and I have trouble going through the federal forms and the various state forms and trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do. I know that deacons are not most are not practicing attorneys or tax accountants, but maybe the deacons could come alongside their pastor and just ask the question to begin with, you know, pastor Dan, do you need help with filing your taxes? I know you're a new pastor. This is all new to you and there are some particularities that you need to be aware of. Do you need help? And not that the deacons would be equipped necessarily to do that, but they could point their pastor to someone who might have that knowledge. And that's not to say that someone on the board of deacons wouldn't have that knowledge. If they did, that would be great.

Speaker 3: 12:30

But if not, there are all kinds of helps and some cost money. Obviously, money, obviously. But to get their pastor that advice that he needs to be edified and correctly fill out his returns and take advantage of the tax laws which are given to pastors so that he can feel comfortable that he's doing that's what's required of him as a citizen of the country and using his finances well. That's part of the tax return. So, citizen of the country and using his finance as well, that's part of the tax return. So, yeah, I think there's a role at least for the Board of Deacons to come alongside their pastor and, at a minimum, ask the question do you need help?

Speaker 1: 13:11

Yeah, I've served as our treasurer at our church for a number of years and worked with four different ministers in that capacity and I always strongly encourage them that they need to find someone, probably a CPA, who has experience with clergy compensation, to help with them and filing their taxes. It is a cost and you know, if there's a need to help with that cost, the church can talk about helping with that. But I think in the long run you're almost certainly going to save money because if you mess that up and you get penalties and various things. And I think it's good for deacons to try to be informed and understand some things like how housing allowance works and how you know pastor in the US this is specifically to the US, but pastors is, you know, self-employed. They're just some idiosyncrasies to their taxes and it's good to understand that.

Speaker 1: 13:58

But I think I strongly encourage ministers to have an expert and I think a lot of ministers have names that are passed around between them and have worked with folks who are experienced here. But if you don't have that, ask your deacons and deacons. I think if you don't have answers you can ask around within your presbytery or I don't know if the CMC publishes a list of recommendations. I'm not aware of that, but I think if we asked around at the CMC level, folks would have some names to recommend. So yeah, this can be a very frustrating and time-consuming area. That's a good way to help out.

Speaker 3: 14:35

Yes, I know very well, I'm sure to help out. Yes, I know very well, I'm sure. Another topic, tim, that might be of help to the pastor is health insurance. It's always a challenge to secure health insurance, to figure out what the family needs and what the best policy might be, and there are various things out there, some that are not actually insurance, but it's always a challenge and I'm wondering what your thoughts are if the Board of Deacons can help Pastor Dan. He's moved to a new area, he's got a young family. Is there anything that the Board of Deacons can do to help guide him in securing that insurance for his growing family?

Speaker 1: 15:15

Yeah, absolutely. This is another thing I've been involved with and continues to be a challenge. I think it's a challenge at a lot of our churches. It's an area where the OPC as a denomination is trying to be more proactive and helpful. The one option that hopefully people are aware of is that the Committee on Ministerial Care of the OPC has coordinated a group insurance plans that ministers can buy into now and those are expensive. But unfortunately insurance is just expensive these days and I think it's worth churches at least evaluating it's something we've been evaluating over the last year.

Speaker 1: 15:50

One of the ways in which I've tried to help with that is just to look at the plans and make recommendations. They've changed up the plans a little bit, I think, since last year, but some of the plans had things that concerned me, like no out-of-pocket max for expenses, which is fine in a normal situation, but if someone gets cancer where the treatments can, on paper, cost millions and millions of dollars, that could end up in a difficult spot. So I just looked through those plans and made my suggestions to our pastors. If we were going to consider those, here are the ones that I would look at and actually, with that, one of the challenges in interacting with our minister's families has sometimes been. Some folks are inclined to try to be as frugal as possible and think, you know, they need to have the cheapest plan to not be a burden on the church. And one of the ways that I've tried to approach that diagonally is, say, the church's goal here is not necessarily I mean, some churches are just in a very tight financial situation but at least in the ideal world the church's goal here is not to make this as cheap as possible, which ultimately is going to put the burden on the minister's family to pay for more expensive care, but our desire is to care for you and be able to help provide for you.

Speaker 1: 17:04

So sometimes it just takes a little bit of convincing for, you know, depending on the personalities, but I think also things are different these days than they were 20 years ago. But trying to stay informed about that and I think a lot of ministers are getting insurance off the marketplace through the federal government and just trying to understand how that works a little bit is, you know you don't have to know the ins and outs, but there are a lot of nuances there around insurance, subsidies based on income and various things and just trying to be able to help and guide people through what can be a very frustrating process and, if you know folks who work in that world, being able to connect your minister with them. And if not, I think the Committee on Ministerial Care of the OPC is a great place to turn with questions and they'll answer them as they're able. But yeah, I think it's a challenging and frustrating situation and sometimes especially, I think, for folks buying insurance off the marketplace it becomes a chore every year to figure out how to deal with that.

Speaker 1: 18:05

I guess also being informed about and this is just good for your congregation being informed about the health share plans like Samaritan Ministries that many folks in our churches use and that has its own pros and cons. I think knowing a little bit about that and being able to speak helpfully about that to people is useful. We have a number of people in our congregation on them. I think they're great in many ways, but it doesn't come without difficulties and, yeah, just I think a little bit of knowledge goes a long way, I guess here and on top of that, just being able to offer a little bit of encouragement through that, you know it can be a very different experience, especially from those of us who have been in, you know, the corporate world, working and just having employer provided insurance for I have for my my whole adult life you just don't realize the kind of the stress and the challenges of going around with having to figure that out all yourself.

Speaker 3: 18:57

Yeah, that's a good point, Tim around with having to figure that out all yourself. Yeah, that's a good point, tim, that the pastor doesn't need to feel alone as he's navigating those deep waters of health insurance. Well, tim, when Pastor Dan arrived in New Beginnings, he rented an apartment so he could just get a lay of the land and figure things out. But now he wants to buy a home. He's never done so. He's a young man and I'm certain that the Board of Deacons might have some assistance for him. Where can he go to get some help in navigating the home-buying maze? And now, when he actually purchases a home, is there anything that the deacons can do to just come alongside and and and encourage him?

Speaker 1: 19:45

Yeah, and I think this is one that um is going to be very situation dependent. I mean, people come with all kinds of different knowledge. Uh, I look back to buying my first home, which wasn't actually that long ago six years ago, I think and realize how little I knew at the time and how, you know, I had so many unknown unknowns I didn't even know the questions to ask. So I think this is a situation where if you particularly have folks who are experienced here, just to be a friend and be able to make yourself available and chat through these things is really helpful. And if you have a realtor in the church who would be useful, you know, I don't know, it's maybe not always the best thing for the pastor to use the realtor in the church to buy a house. I don't know, you can kind of decide that on a situational basis.

Speaker 1: 20:33

But even if they could just advise and look over things, if you have somebody in the church who is handy we have two deacons in our church who work in construction, which is a huge blessing, and they, you know, if the pastor wants, could go, you know, look at a home with them. It may be a big help but it might not be something everybody wants, right. So you, I think this is a situation where you don't want to just force yourself into helping, but just to make yourself available in the most helpful way. I think that just is really feeling out what is needed and trying to meet those needs. I guess I feel a little bit nervous about stepping on toes or coming in. You don't want to just treat your minister like they're your 18-year-old child. I'm curious of your thoughts from the other side of the table as a minister.

Speaker 3: 21:21

You know, I really appreciate your sensitivity to not coming in like a bowl in a China store and the pastor might not want it, and so I appreciate the sensitivity to that.

Speaker 3: 21:34

I think that's very wise.

Speaker 3: 21:36

As I was buying our first home, I could have used a lot of guidance.

Speaker 3: 21:42

I wasn't in the pastorate at that time but I think anyone coming alongside the pastor and just at least offering and saying, look, we know that you're here, we know certain areas that you might want to consider, we know certain areas that you might want to stay away from. We're here to help. We're not here to push you in any particular direction, but if you want it, we're here, we have some knowledge and we do know realtors, we do know loan companies, we've got folks that we can recommend, but we're not again pushing anyone on you, and so I think that would be helpful and appreciated by anyone, especially one who's not sought out or who has not purchased a home before, which can be a daunting task and then, after you buy it, just trying to figure out how to turn the water on or what happens when the roof is leaking and the deacons being there to possibly provide some guidance to craftsmen who can come in and help. So you know, I think the deacons have a role to play, but I do appreciate concern for sensitivity to that.

Speaker 1: 22:52

Yeah, I think also in maintaining the house, it's a good time for deacons to assess their own abilities. I have a friend who's a minister, who lived in a manse and the deacons tried to do a lot of the maintenance, with the emphasis on tried, and it just didn't. It didn't go well and I think it created some tensions over things not being met in a satisfactory way. Um and so it's a good opportunity for humility and you know, sometimes we really need to save money, sometimes we really want to save money, but sometimes we need to be realistic about our abilities and make sure that we're not causing a strain, and I think particularly that can easily cause a strain on the minister's wife and family when folks are trying to be helpful and it's not being helpful. So just, I think, a little bit of a caution there. Yes, good, very good. So we want to talk about cars, and it's a similar situation to houses. In some ways it's also a touchy subject often.

Speaker 3: 23:53

I think you could probably apply the same wisdom to to that. Cars breakdown, I think, more often often than houses do, and so a pastor could certainly use help in finding a good mechanic. But again, I think your wisdom on being sensitive to pushing knowledge onto the pastor when it may not be desired is also wise. But cars are a bit of their own problems. They're necessary in the communities that we live in and yet they can be very problematic. So I think the pastor would appreciate at least guidance and going to the right mechanic.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of us much like.

Speaker 1: 24:36

But if there's also an opportunity, if one, you know, sometimes young men could feel very just have a lack of confidence in this area and sometimes maybe it's just an opportunity to build up their confidence and realize, help them realize they're, they're better, not just this area, but, you know, all these kinds of areas, realize that they're better at making these decisions and providing and leading for their family than they realize.

Speaker 1: 25:17

Sometimes it's an opportunity to say, oh, you actually don't know, let me try to talk to you about it, but I think cars are a difficult diagonal thing in general. Just, you know, you often find out folks who are having financial troubles, have car payments they shouldn't be having, and you know people their lives are interfered with by cars breaking down and you know it's, I think, a tough one in our world. Yes, so let's go back to a topic I already broached on a little bit, but just thinking about hospitality and really friendship. So if we, maybe Pastor Dan, has moved across the country to take this call and he has no friends or family in the area outside of the local church, how can a diaconate use hospitality to encourage Pastor Dan, and also just think about encouraging the congregation to have hospitality.

Speaker 3: 26:06

I think this is a great question and one that our churches and maybe our diaconates, our sessions, are really not thinking about. Many times it's the pastor who's expected to have hospitality, and I think that's the right expectation. I think pastors should be the ones leading the way in hospitality. An encouragement it would be for the deacons to take a lead role in encouraging the members of the congregation very specifically to, hey, have the pastor over to your home just to give him a sense of who you are, not in a pastoral visit sense, but just in a friendship, a fellowship sense, a community sense, where you're inviting him into your home, you're giving he and his family a meal, you're just sharing your lives with him, and that would be such a great blessing. The pastor is feeling part of the congregation to that extent he is feeling welcomed in, he's feeling loved, his family is enjoying just fellowship with another family.

Speaker 3: 27:25

I think the deacons have a significant role to encourage that hospitality. Certainly they should be doing it themselves as well, I think. But just encouraging the entire congregation, Now, that may take some training. It may take some teaching. It may be something that the deacons would want to bring to the session and say, hey, we'd like to, if we can, have a part of the education hour, maybe once or twice in the year, to use to encourage the congregation in hospitality and then maybe have a special section on, and you know what, you can invite Pastor Dan and his family to come as well. So I think there's a role for the diaconate to play in encouraging the congregation and certainly in providing an example to the congregation for hospitality, specifically to the pastor.

Speaker 1: 28:12

Yeah, I think that's great Again, an opportunity to know your pastors and know their interests. And you know one of our pastors loves pickleball and some folks in the church love to play pickleball with him are more than just pastors, they're men and husbands and fathers and they may have interests. I think you just read law textbooks outside of your work maybe, but people on the podcast can't see that you're at a loss for words from that.

Speaker 3: 28:49

I don't have anything to respond.

Speaker 1: 28:51

I think just knowing and this goes for all the folks in our church, right Knowing the folks in your church and and understanding you know people are more than maybe more than just the impression you get on Sunday, not in a in a bad way. Just, you know, we only get so much exposure to someone on Sunday and I think for a pastor especially, we get even more limited because they're very focused on Sunday and they have a large role to play, obviously at the church and you just need that exposure and fellowship outside of the church. I think that's a great reminder to not just expect the pastor and his family to be the coordinator for that.

Speaker 3: 29:28

Well, Tim, you've already touched upon this subject and that is fellowship with the pastor subject. And that is fellowship with the pastor, and I'll just say that the pastorate can be a very lonely place, especially for a solo pastor. Certainly, the session provides some camaraderie, but that's limited and there are other churches in certain locations that are close enough where a pastor can fellowship with other pastors. But what an opportunity for the deacons to come alongside their pastor and really just take some time to fellowship with him, kind of on a one-on-one basis. What do you think of that?

Speaker 1: 30:11

Yeah, I think, great opportunity, something that we try to do, like I mentioned, just having a meal together during the week or if there are common interests.

Speaker 1: 30:21

Yeah, I think it just goes back again to being a friend and deacons are in a special place to do that. Not that others in the congregation can't, and again, as with all of this, it's just somewhat situation dependent. But I think in any case it's just better for our deacons to be thinking proactively here and not just assuming everything is handled and you know. So you kind of feel that out and understand the needs. But I think everyone benefits as those relationships are built, and not just with the pastors but with the ruling elders, the deacons, the session knowing one another outside of just church and church meetings is a great thing. In our church it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years, but we sometimes just the officers will get together on Sunday evening and sit around a fire at somebody's house and, you know, smoke a pipe and just chat with one another. It's a great opportunity. Just think about those things and how they could work in your church.

Speaker 3: 31:22

That sounds great. I'd like to be part of that. You're welcome. Well, let's not leave the pastor's wife out. She is in a rather unique situation the wife of a pastor. She's the member of the congregation, but unless you've got multiple pastors, she's the only one, and life can be lonely in that role as well.

Speaker 1: 31:56

What can the diacon's wives and I think also the ruling elder's wives to just be there for the pastor's wife and make sure they're aware of her. But I think again, evaluating your situation and the age and stage of your pastor's wife, maybe you encourage other ladies in the church who might not be thinking about it to just get to know her or understand what she needs. Maybe if your pastor has young kids, what the wife needs is is a break to just get out by herself. So try it. Maybe the deacons can help coordinate some kind of childcare for the woman on a regular basis or something just so she can get out and have some time. You just have to think through what the situation is. It's different for you. Your wife as an empty nester versus a young pastor who has four, six, eight young kids could be totally different as to what this looks like.

Speaker 3: 32:50

Yeah, good point, good point.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Yeah, before we go forward, I think one other thing to mention again is the OPC Committee of Ministerial Care does provide these retreat stipends to help support pastors and their wives, I think, to go have some kind of retreat I don't remember all the details of how that works and encourage deacons to encourage their ministers to make use of that.

Speaker 3: 33:13

Hmm, Actually that feeds right into the next question, which is a little bit more difficult than some of the ones we've talked about earlier. Pastor Dan is young and enthusiastic and, as the deacons have been watching him, he's just going, going, going. He is pressing on and preaching and teaching and doing his visitations and involved in evangelism. He's enthusiastic and now the deacons have observed after two years now we've moved on from that first year Dan's looking a little weary and he may be showing some signs of burnout. It's really not time for the session to consider a sabbatical, but it does seem to be time for maybe a change of pace or some rest. What can the deaconate do to help Pastor Dan to come alongside Pastor Dan as he begins his third year?

Speaker 1: 34:10

I think a lot of opportunities here. One is that's a good reminder for the deacons to reevaluate their own service and things they're doing. I think in a lot of our churches I hear about pastors doing things that they shouldn't be doing the pastor scrambling on Sunday morning to copy bulletins, copy and fold bulletins right before the service. If that's happening, I would encourage you to whether the deacons take that over or find somebody else in the church who can help with that and keep the pastor's Sunday morning free from that responsibility. It's just an example. I've tried. I've actually gotten out of the habit of this need to get back in it. But when our deacons in session meet together which, just as a side tip, is something that should be happening on a regular basis, but make sure you're saying to the session are there things that deacons could be doing here to take things off your plate? And I think asking that but also just observing that are there things that you're seeing the pastor doing that you could say, hey, can we take that over? Do you need to be doing those things? And that's the encouragement I try to give to all church members and don't just sit and wait to be asked, but look for ways you can serve.

Speaker 1: 35:23

I think also I wasn't looking ahead in our notes here, but I think this retreat stipend from the Committee on Ministerial Care is a great thing to consider. At least look into the details of that. I know in some churches and this is very case-by-case things, but maybe somebody in the home has a vacation home that they're willing to lend to the pastor. I think that's a great opportunity to make use of that, even if it's, you know, maybe you have a beach house and you let them use it for free in the off season when you can't rent it anyway. To look out for those kinds of opportunities Again, I think I'm interested in your perspective on this one as a minister. What are ways which you have been or could see being served in this way?

Speaker 3: 36:05

Yeah, that's why I said it was a tough question. You mentioned the Committee on Ministerial Cares Fund at least that's the way I understand it to provide a getaway for a pastor and his wife, for a week maybe, and there are certain limitations to that. But if the deacons are going and I think they should encourage their pastor to take advantage of that again if it's offered in 2025, they should know that their pastors need to get out there early because the fund is limited and they need to take advantage of the fund while there's money still in it. But in the case that that's not available, maybe the deacons could think about hey, maybe a love gift to the pastor. Maybe he just doesn't have the financial ability at that point in time to go someplace and just rest and pay for it. Maybe the deacons might consider offering that. But that's why I said this is a tough question and it's something that deacons might want to wrestle with and certainly interact with the session on before they would make any decisions, but it's something for the deacons to consider.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Yeah, I think a great opportunity to huddle with the ruling elders in particular and work on this together, because certainly I think in all of your interests, but also all of your purview, not to care for your minister.

Speaker 3: 37:26

Well, let's touch upon one more topic here, and that is just kind of asking for help, as we think about the interaction between Pastor Dan and the diaconate. What do you think about inviting him to the Board of Deacons meetings? Do you think that's appropriate?

Speaker 1: 37:46

I know this is a habit in some churches. It's not been a habit in our church. I think it is appropriate, but I don't think it's not necessarily always a good idea. For one it's just an extra responsibility and usually going to be an extra night out for the pastor. If your pastor is already doing a lot of visitation or other evening responsibilities, especially if they have kids at home, I think it's wise to think whether or not that's a good idea. I think if you don't do that, like I said, the session and deacons meeting together on a regular basis is a good thing.

Speaker 1: 38:20

We're trying to get into a habit of doing that quarterly. Actually, I think we're trying to switch it now to every other month from quarterly just to make sure we're on the same page. And I think it's you know. I think, for if a pastor is attending the deacon meeting, it is good for him to make sure he's not coming in and being domineering and taking over, because you need to let your deacons be your deacons. But yeah, I think it is a good, could be a good opportunity. I think it probably could be a particularly good opportunity for a young minister who may not have a lot of exposure to the diaconate and I think our seminaries have relatively limited instruction on diaconal things, and it's a good thing. We've only had a little bit of experience with interns but it's something I try to encourage interns at least to come a little bit to our deacon meetings and just see how things work. I think it gives them a leg up.

Speaker 3: 39:15

Yeah, I appreciate your wisdom on that. A pastor could come into a meeting and thinking that, okay, now I need to run this, and that would be the wrong approach. But I do appreciate the fact that seminaries really are not. I don't think they spend. We spend much time in training our future pastors about what the diaconate looks like. So, yeah, just inviting them to hey come in and see how we work and operate would be if he had time for that, wonderful, yeah, good idea.

Speaker 1: 39:48

So, just as we wrap up here, one other thing to think about is what do we think about deacons going to their pastor to help in solving a diaconal matter? When should deacons go, and what kind of things might the deacons bring to the pastor?

Speaker 3: 40:05

Again, it's related to the pastor going to the diaconal meetings, but it's a bit different, as I think of deacons. I think of deacons as being problem solvers and I think it's the nature of men to say you know what, we got this and we really don't need any help on this. I think that's part of the nature of a deacon. I think that's part of the nature of a deacon, but I want to think that it might be just an encouragement to your pastor to, from time to time, say, hey, we've got this diaconal situation, we think we know how to approach it. But, pastor, what do you think Now?

Speaker 3: 40:51

I think that works a couple of different things. I think, first, it's the deacons going and seeking counsel and advice, not saying that we don't have a plan, but saying, hey, you know what, this is the way we'd approach it. We just want to bounce this off you and see what you think. Secondly, I think it's an encouragement to the pastor just knowing that the deacons value his input. And you feel part of the church when the deacons are coming to you as the pastor and saying, hey, this is going on and first of all, we want you to know of it. But secondly, we'd like your help, and just asking for help can be an encouragement to the pastor.

Speaker 3: 41:44

Certainly, that can get out of hand if one were to take it to an extreme, and he's always on the phone with every diaconal matter. But I'm not suggesting that. I'm just suggesting that maybe think about going to the pastor as a means of encouragement to the pastor. I'm not sure we would think of it that way, but if I receive that kind of question, I'm encouraged that the deac would value my input on it. So yeah, I think it's. I think it's something that the deacons might want to think about.

Speaker 1: 42:16

Yeah, that's helpful and I think for us. We've seen there are so many situations diaconal situations that are bigger than just somebody needing money, as almost all diaconal situations are, and I've never regretted going and talking to the pastor about those things and that's good, good for everyone, as you're saying.

Speaker 3: 42:37

Yeah Well, tim, as we wrap up, I just want to first thank you for serving so many years at Shiloh, but what other advice might you offer to deacons just generally, as they consider this topic of mercy ministry to your pastor?

Speaker 1: 42:53

I think, just generally, a way we serve our pastors indirectly is just thinking about being faithful deacons, which means also being faithful Christians and faithful church members and having deacons who are regular attendants in worship, having deacons who are raising their household well, having deacons who are proactive and responsive to needs at the church, is going to be a boost and encouragement to your pastor. So I think there's a lot of this we've talked about are the things of direct involvement, but I think there's a lot of indirect opportunity as well, where, as the deacons are serving the church well, you're serving your pastor and your elders and that's going to be encouragement. One of my favorite pieces written on the diaconate is this piece from RC Reed, who is a Southern Presbyterian. He wrote this 120 years ago in the Union Seminary magazine, but in it he talks about how a good deacon is the pastor's most valuable ally. Officially he is worth two elders, and I think what he means by that is. He goes on to say the problem with a good deacon is people try to make him an elder and so you lose a deacon and gain an elder. So that makes a deacon worth two elders. Hopefully the ruling elders are the pastor's most valuable ally and the whole congregation as well.

Speaker 1: 44:07

But I think there's a special relationship between the pastor and the deacon as they serve together. That is a chance to be a blessing and an encouragement to the congregation. It's something I hope the four pastors I've served with would testify to at Shiloh and at all our congregations. And as we build that relationship, as we serve one another, as we serve the church together, you know, just like Ephesians, it's a chance for us to grow up in every way into Christ and it'll bless our pastor and in turn that's going to bless the deacon and bless our whole congregation and there's just, hopefully, a snowball effect of blessing and service here that deacons have an opportunity to do and that's such a that's a privilege for me and the motivator to me and should be for all of our deacons, even through the discouraging times and the difficult times, that blessing from Christ is there and is free to the taking for us, which is a great thing.

Speaker 3: 45:08

Well said, Well said. Thank you, Tim. Well, thank you, Tim, for taking the time to consider this important topic of serving your local pastor with mercy Deacons. We hope that this episode was helpful and will be an encouragement to you in your labors for the Lord.

Speaker 2: 45:26

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeaconorg. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.