Adrian Crum: 0:00

It's helpful to remember always that it's typical that when there is some sort of financial breakdown, there are also lots of spiritual struggles in different ways, and I think merely putting a Band-Aid on something temporarily without asking heart-level spiritual questions does not serve people very well.

David Nakhla: 0:16

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand Deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Nakhla and I'm the Administrator for the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. On today's episode of the Reformed Deacon, I'll be joined by three members of the Committee on Diaconal Ministries deacon John Voss, deacon John Stahl and pastor Adrian Crum. They've all agreed to participate in interacting on a set of excellent listener questions. I'm sure my brothers here will be the first to tell you that they don't pretend to have all the answers, but hopefully their interactions on this text will help shed some light on the topic. And a big thank you to Caleb in Phoenix, arizona, who sent us these questions. We'll be sending you a Reformed Deacon t-shirt, caleb, if you don't have one yet, and others of you if you have questions or ideas on a diaconal topic that you'd like to hear discussed. Let us know by emailing us at mail, m-a-i-l mail@ thereformedeacon. org. You can find that in the show notes below. Great way to get a t-shirt. They're comfortable. Okay, brothers, let's get started.

David Nakhla: 1:44

Our questions come today from 1 Timothy, 5: 3-16. And I thought it'd be good to begin by reading that passage, kind of bringing it fresh into our minds and then we can interact with it. So this is God's word I Timothy 5:3- 16. Honor widows who are truly widows. But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. But she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.

David Nakhla: 2:44

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than 60 years of age, having been the wife of one husband and having a reputation for good works, if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted and has devoted herself to every good work, but refuse to enroll younger widows for when their passions draw them away from Christ. To enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ. They desire to marry and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers but also gossips and busybodies saying what they should not. So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households and give the adversary no occasion for slander, for some have already strayed after Satan.

David Nakhla: 3:57

If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are truly widows. Let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened so that it may care for those who are truly widows. So, brothers, our first question here that's come to us is how should deacons interact with people asking for help when they have not yet asked their family for it? Our questioner points out that verse four basically implies it's first the family's job and then the church's job. But he wonders is it the deacon's job to go to the family asking for money on behalf of the person, or just telling them to ask and then come back if they refuse. He wonders what that interaction would look like. Should deacons, how do they involve the family when someone comes to them asking for help?

John Voss: 4:49

If the person's coming asking for help, the first thing I would want to do is find out what the issue is, obviously what help is needed. Once you've had that conversation, the very next question would be have you talked to your family? Because family comes first. Right, it's not necessarily the church's responsibility, it's the family's responsibility number one when God instituted family. That's why he instituted the family to take care of each other. And then we see the condemnation that Paul says by you know it's worse than an unbeliever. So I would be inclined to listen to the situation but then immediately ask have you talked to family? And I would do that. If it's my church or whether it's a walk-in from the street, I would always ask about family first and then maybe, if it's pertinent, meaning that by that I mean that it's a stranger from off the street the next question is well, what about your home church? That would be the next thing too. Yeah.

John Stahl: 5:56

I would definitely agree with that. That's our practice amongst our deacons at our church, amongst our deacons at our church, and I don't think there is any. I'm glad, J ohn, that you brought up that. There really is no— I don't think there's much difference in how we make suggestions to those who have need inside the church or outside, except I would actually challenge them to ask their family first in either case, and if it's within the church and we hear the family refuse to help, then I think it's probably a matter of bringing the elders, getting the elders involved, because there's other underlying issues than just meeting physical need.

John Voss: 6:48

And that would be something that we would need to clarify as well. I know of individuals where there was drug addiction, alcohol abuse. The family tried to help. For years the family helped, but there does come a time when the family I don't want to say turns your back, but if they're not willing to engage with the help the family's trying to offer them, there does come a time. I think that you have to get the church involved. I think there's a time when you may have to say we have to. I don't want to say stop, but I guess ultimately, yeah, you almost have to stop because you can't enable. But with the idea that I'm stopping, I'm not breaking off communication, I'm just not going to give you another 50 bucks or $25 because I'm enabling you. But there does come a time when I think there is denial of the request may be necessary, but still staying in touch and trying somehow to exhibit love by staying asked their family and there's been no help.

John Stahl: 8:05

So we've never had to get the elders involved in a situation like that at the time that I've been a deacon. Yet I do remember one incident from way back that a young couple had the need and I asked if the family had helped yet, and they hadn't. And so I suggested that they ask for help from their parents, who were part of the church as well. And what I remember from that long ago was it was positive, the family did help, but then the deacons also helped where the family couldn't. So the family and the deacons fulfilled their duties to this young couple.

John Stahl: 8:48

And then, in another case, which happened just a few weeks ago, we had a call from the outside and, as always, like John Voss was saying, I suggested to the person with the need to ask their family, and typically the response is well, they can't help either, or they've helped so much already. I said well, you know, still we ask you to try. You know, you never know what God will do. And so what happened was their mother helped out enough that the church didn't even have to help. So that was a success story, which doesn't often happen, especially with somebody from outside the church.

Adrian Crum: 9:34

I think maybe to put the passage in context in the New Testament, it's a letter from Paul to a young pastor who's struggling through a variety of different problems and issues, and I think we take verse eight if anyone does not provide for his relatives, especially for members of his household, he's denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Adrian Crum: 9:52

We take that as sort of a principle, randomly, but it comes in the context of specifically asking which widows should be cared for consistently by the church, and I think there will be, to kind of qualify some of the things that we've said, that John Voss and John Stahl have said, I think there will be one-off situations of maybe extremely urgent need that are not widows, that the deacons may have to just jump in and help. I think the specific question is if someone wants to become dependent on the deacons. These are some principles that go into effect, and I think the reason for why Paul says this to Timothy is the people that are often hardest to go and ask to are the people who know you the best, and so I think the principle behind that is make sure that the ones that you would have to be most humble in some sense, to go and ask you've gone through that step, as we've mentioned?

David Nakhla: 10:46

Yeah, yeah, that's good. You know, I've had the experience where, when somebody has come from the outside asking for help, we have oftentimes a part of actually validating their story to ask them for contact info from a relative, talk to your mother, your father, your brother, whatever, and in a sense there's an opportunity there to do what the questioner is asking, to kind of play that role of connecting them to the family. But it also oftentimes you learn why the family maybe isn't helping, because this didn't just pop up overnight and there's a long history here and maybe there's bad reason that they're not helping. But maybe there's good reason they're not helping and so it helps us to involve the family from the standpoint of, as John Voss was talking about, not enabling in the beginning. So that's really, really great.

David Nakhla: 11:45

He asks an interesting follow-up question. He says have you ever had to enact church discipline on family members unwilling to provide for a widow, since they are, as he quotes here, since they're worse than an unbeliever? Yeah, that's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard of that before. It probably, you know, it probably would be worthy of church discipline if somebody was actually saying no, I don't really want to care for this widow, even though she's a part of the church and she's part of our family. Yeah, there's demonstrates some significant hard-heartedness, but what do you brothers think? Or what have you seen?

John Voss: 12:21

I liked seeing that question. Thankfully, I have never experienced it yet, in particular in the church. I've experienced it every time from those who are outside of the church, but I have never experienced it within the church itself. But, that being said, I tried to put myself into that set of shoes and look at should there be. And yeah, I do think that the church at that point needs to step in with at least some admonishment and want to sit down and meet. Now there again, going back to what I had said, whatever five minutes ago.

John Voss: 13:02

Sometimes there are reasons on why you're not helping in accordance with the help that's being asked of you. Yeah, right, I mean, enabling is not helping. Denial at that point, in a case of addiction or something, or even when you're living a wrong lifestyle, then there does come that time where denial of the request is appropriate. But you need to find that background, the church needs to find that. Again, it's worse than an unbeliever, unless it's part of what I would call intra-family discipline. That's going on. But again, to me that's also an illegitimate request. If they're requesting something but they're not going to change lifestyle, blah, blah, that kind of thing then I would consider that to be an inappropriate request as well. You're asking me to support you and affirm the decisions over whatever it is you're doing, and I don't.

Adrian Crum: 14:03

And there's a place for that, so I think whenever people ask questions about church discipline it's helpful to take a step back and say there are many different forms of discipline. So the book of Hebrews says exhort one another as long as it is called today. So the very basic initial form of discipline is Christians mutually encouraging and challenging each other with scripture. Elders then also pray and admonish and correct people in informal ways. And admonish and correct people in informal ways. Formal church discipline is a last resort and it's always as a response to hard-heartedness and non-repentance. I think sometimes church members can get the sense you step out of line and boom, the elders are coming to charge you with formal church discipline. As a pastor and my whole life I've never seen that happen. So I think it's helpful to say if someone hardened in their resolve not to care for their family in this area which would be quite surprising that could be a very last step. But there would be many, many informal steps of discipline leading up to that.

David Nakhla: 15:08

Yeah, that's good.

John Voss: 15:08

Thank you, Adrian, go back to the first two verses in the chapter where Paul is saying when you speak to young men, you speak respectfully, but you speak to them as brothers, to the older women, to your mother, to the elder like your father. There's a respect that you treat your fellow believers with as well and initially, yes, it's done in kindness and encouragement, not necessarily bringing a hammer down on somebody. Yeah.

John Stahl: 15:46

Yeah, good is that? Often we think of the family that's being asked is in the previous generation, the parents, right Whereas this is focused on the children giving help to the parents. It seems to me, which you know, we've had that case too, where we've encouraged that, because that's where this particular family is going to find their support from, and some need of support is from their children. They've invested in their children and now they should expect that they would have that love and respect return to them.

David Nakhla: 16:25

Yeah, thank you. And just sharing with the listeners, verse four is but if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. So, yeah, certainly in that culture and even today, your children and grandchildren are very much, in a sense, your social security, those who will be caring for those older ones who don't have the means to care for themselves.

John Voss: 16:52

It's in that verse where Paul actually does point that out. I was looking at one of the commentaries where they talked about that. The Pharisaic law was that if I wanted to give a gift, instead of giving it to my parents I could give it to the temple, and that was okay. You didn't have to take care of your parents and basically that was wrong. The korban, yeah, the korban, or yeah, korban, but I also. Then you look at one of the verses where it says the father shall lay up for the children, not the children for the fathers. Yeah, and I think that you have to take both of those within proper context. Yeah, and that is. You know, if your folks are hurting, then you need to be helping them out, and it's not always monetarily. We'll get into that maybe later on in some of these other questions, but there's other things besides, you know, taking care of some expenses and stuff like that.

David Nakhla: 17:44

That's good. No, the reminder of that it's not always monetary. It's a great reminder that the ministry of presence is kind of a recurring theme that's been coming up these days. Let's move to the second question is how do deacons, or should deacons, deal with the command to refuse to enroll younger widows in verse 11 and basically refuse to help people that could change their own circumstances, such as getting remarried? This refusal to enroll younger widows, he asks, is Paul referring to this group of widows widely and generally? Some of these concepts probably have to carry over to widowers as well. How would you decide what is specific to that time period and what's prescribed for today's church? So this concept of refusing to enroll younger widows, the verse nine let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than 60 years of age, and then lots of other qualifications that follow that. Thoughts on that.

John Stahl: 18:46

It's a great question, one that I never really analyzed much until I read Cornelius Van Dam's book the Deacon, because he addresses this and specifically says there's a turn, at verse 9, from speaking of the widows in general and how they should be helped, versus this enrollment of widows, and through his research and interpretation, he's come to the conclusion that this was speaking of widows that are enrolled for a specific ministry of love and service, probably in particular to younger mothers, given some of the experience that they're expected to have in caring for children and helping the afflicted. So yeah, I would have to go along with Van Dam's interpretation, because that's what I've been exposed to.

John Stahl: 19:44

And it seems to make sense.

John Voss: 19:47

Well, even in one of the passages where the woman has helped raise children and one of the commentaries that pointed out didn't say bore children, it said raise children and basically the implication was that had this older member helped, like you were saying, to the younger mothers and to the younger children, had she helped, did she wash the feet of the serve of the uh servants and the followers of Christ? Was she uh um charitable actions to other members of the church? It goes back into the last question we'll get to, I guess, the godly acts. But I saw that read the same thing about that. They would be enrolled in service to the rest of the church and I think that's only fair. That the younger women are going to be raising their children right, they've got little kids. They're going to have a harder time being of service to others in the church because they've got to take care of raising these kids. If they're overwhelmed they need help. Perhaps One of the things is that they get remarried. That also falls upon the men in the church too, women getting married because she does need support. I know of a case where someone married somebody for that reason that she's a widow, she's got four or five kids and he knew the family. He knew her, he loved her. He ended up marrying her and taking care of that family, raising the family as his own. I guess that's maybe being part of the church as well, if the church steps in, whether it's through remarriage or whether the church itself helps that woman. Who's younger the kids get older, a little bit older. She can get another job, she can get remarried.

John Voss: 21:50

I took this as is there other things that she can do to help herself. There are. She's an older woman, at 60 years old wasn't going to get a job, especially in those days. They're lucky if they made it to 60 years old. But a younger woman could earn money by doing whatever, working for somebody. Maybe she wove blankets and sold them or something. But there were ways that she could help support herself and they should be encouraged. People should be encouraged to do that. That's just part of being a person, a human being, an adult, that we take care of ourselves and have something left over for others. So we encourage for that. Now do we cut her off? No, because there's going to be plenty of emergency things that are going to come up where someone I don't think he's saying you cut them off? I guess that's my point. You're not cutting them off, but you're not as liberal in your giving. You try to encourage them to take steps on their own as well. Maybe that's a better way of putting it.

Adrian Crum: 23:02

So I have a comparison passage, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, verse 37, whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire and control has determined this in his heart to keep her as a betrothed, he will do well.

Adrian Crum: 23:16

So then, he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better. Earlier in the passage, he speaks about the goodness of remaining unmarried. He desires everyone to be as he is, if it's possible. Again, I think we tend to look at individual verses in epistles that are occasional, so they're written to a particular problem. We tend to look at the passages and then make sort of principles that cover everything.

Adrian Crum: 23:41

I think, very specifically, paul is concerned about a church that is unruly and there are different kinds of problems in that particular church, and there I think he's saying in this case young women who are unmarried. It can serve them particularly to seek to marry and to manage their households. Give the adversary no occasion for slander. I don't think this is then saying any woman who is under 60 years old, the Bible requires to marry. I think there is different circumstances and situations by which it's not necessary, and so I think, again, we want to compare Scripture with Scripture and see, based on wisdom, what a person is being called to.

Adrian Crum: 24:24

I think his concern this may relate to our last question His concern is not that godly people should be cared for, like super, super Christians or really remarkable Christians should be cared for by the church and then ungodly people don't deserve to be cared for. I think sometimes it can be read that way. I really think he's trying to discern if someone is a believer, if someone's a Christian, if they're a part of your church, a member in good standing. We could say here are the things that are expected of them, and then if someone is demonstrating by their life that they have no commitment to the gospel or Christ, you should think wisely and differently about that person. I think that's the principle under what Paul is saying in this whole section.

David Nakhla: 25:09

Again, what Cornelius Van Dam in his book the Deacon talks about is the enrolling, seems to be, into some sort of class of individuals who are serving in a very specific way in the church. And he's saying, yeah, they need to be a certain type of widow and there are certain types of widows who and he makes the distinction of the younger ones for various reasons just don't fit that class of service and that's why he says that when their passions draw them away from Christ, Van Dam is saying that he's talking about them being drawn away from this enrollment in this service and so don't even set them up for failure. In a sense, let's set a bar. And he says 60 years old. But as Adrian was saying, very specific to these circumstances, in this particular situation that young Timothy is finding himself in, it's always been an intriguing passage to me because you rarely see in Scripture such a black and white specific. You know, you usually see a principal and you know Paul saying not less than 60 years old. That's just so, so unusual and it is unusual.

David Nakhla: 26:22

So any other thoughts on that question? Good question, Intriguing passage. Let's go to our third question. He says similar to number two how should deacons focus on the godliness of those asking for help, and he points to verses 9 and 10. He says seem to say that they must have some shown exceptional godliness to be enrolled. Yeah, it seems like this relates to that enrollment, but maybe if we can broaden it a little bit, and he broadens it, he says if so, how do deacons differentiate between a request of a very godly member of the church compared to a spiritually lukewarm member or maybe even an outside believer asking for help?

John Stahl: 27:11

I don't know if you want to jump there or you want to start initially with the godliness, but thoughts I think certainly a priority is on the household of faith.

John Stahl: 27:16

That's just a general diaconal principle that the household of faith has priority, with the diaconal resources, over those outside the church.

John Stahl: 27:27

But that doesn't preclude we should look to helping those outside of the church, because that can be a means by which the love of God is shown to a person who doesn't know Christ, but I think similarly, who doesn't know Christ, but I think similarly, one motivation that we have in helping those within the body of Christ, within the local church, isn't just to help meet their physical need, it's for them to sense that they're part of the body, that they're a valued part of the body, an encouragement to their spiritual walk, if you will.

John Stahl: 28:06

And so for that reason it's difficult to. I think my tendency as deacon certainly would be to give priority to someone who has shown service and love for the Lord. But again, you can't ignore the needs of those in the body who may be less mature, because they need to be encouraged to be more part of the body, be encouraged to grow in the walk with the Lord. So the distinction between the household of faith and those outside of the church is pretty much an easy one to make, right biblically and emotionally, really as a deacon. But within the church that's a tougher call because everyone in theory has made that commitment to the local body to be a member and we've received them as members, promising to be concerned for their spiritual and material welfare.

David Nakhla: 29:12

It's certainly been my experience that not so much the godliness but the requests that come when there's a sense of entitlement or there's a sense of impatience, makes it difficult to minister mercy to individuals. And I was thinking about. The corollary to this would be with the elders. In Hebrews 3, it talks about obeying your elders and submit to them for they keep and watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. And in the same way the spirit of those who come with humility and tenderness, it sure makes the work of the deacons much more enjoyable. And you know, the deacons are individuals with personalities, with emotions as well, and to be able to find joy in that work, by receiving requests in humility, is a big factor in how in the service that one will receive. I think, just practically speaking.

Adrian Crum: 30:06

It's helpful.

Adrian Crum: 30:07

I think we said this in sort of a brief form earlier in this podcast, but it's helpful to remember always that it's typical that when there is some sort of financial breakdown, there are also lots of spiritual struggles in different ways, and I think merely putting a band-aid on something temporarily without asking heart level spiritual questions does not serve people very well. So I think, sensing that a call to godliness is really striking to me, that Paul goes on to speak about the dangers of love of money. So I think there's a connection between godliness and loving the Lord for the age to come and serving people's souls as you care for them physically as deacons, and so asking you know what things are you worshiping or following after that have put you into this situation? And tying we always want to tie word and deed together and connect those things, and so I think it'll take time and it'll take a lot of wisdom.

Adrian Crum: 31:02

It's the reason why the book of Acts, men full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit are those who are set aside as deacons, and so I think we need to be patient in asking lots of questions and then again I think I mentioned this in the article I wrote for New Horizons, be able to put ourselves in the shoes of people that are in a hard place and say I have done foolish stuff. Also, I don't have my life together and I have done things that are foolish at times and got myself in bad situations and have the compassion of Christ to serve people. So I think you want to keep both those things together.

David Nakhla: 31:34

Yeah, excellent.

John Voss: 31:35

Excellent points. I don't think you look at mercy ministry as whether or not someone is earned. Sometimes we think, oh well, this is a godly person and they've earned or merited or they deserve to be treated well. But like you said, David, actually it's easy to do that. Yeah. It's some of those harder cases that are a little bit more difficult to deal with. And then we have to open our hearts and make sure what we're doing and why we're doing it. What are the reasons why we're doing it? Yeah, yeah.

David Nakhla: 32:13

Very good discussion, brothers. Any final thoughts? Final words.

Adrian Crum: 32:20

I think we've sort of already said this, but the focus and the center of our service, as John Voss was just saying, has to be leading people to Christ, and Christ is the great deacon that has laid down his life for us as his people. And so I think, seeing the diaconal ministry as gospel opportunity and beginning with urgings and encouragements of the gospel, concluding with that leading people, not merely thinking I need to be sort of a financial coach for someone who deals with something that's merely physical but driving people to see their need for Jesus and need for the gospel I think it's essential.

John Voss: 32:58

It was a good passage. I especially like about it is that it really deals very well with dealing with the household of faith and it does show the priority there that it is towards the household of faith. That's first and foremost. I actually had a little note to myself to remember that the household of faith comes first, obviously. But Jesus did do I'll call it one-offs he did it within the context of giving the word as well. But he fed the 5,000. Once Next morning they were out looking for him. They wanted another meal, right, that's what he actually told them. You got fed yesterday. That's why you're here today and that's what happens when you're dealing outside of the household. But we still do works of mercy to the outside, beyond the household of faith. I almost consider it a totally different context. We still want to give the word.

David Nakhla: 33:55

I was going to say, especially when they're willing to stick around and listen to the message which they did with Jesus right.

John Voss: 34:01

And we're going to make you sit through the service. Actually, I look at that as an opportunity as well. They're going to sit through the service. Actually, I look at that as an opportunity as well. They're going to sit through the service, um, and they need help. But you know what? You never know when the lord's, when the holy spirit's going to poke somebody's heart and wake them up. So I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it. There is a point and there is a reason of offering the cup of cold water to the unbeliever. Look at the widow who, yes, lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs off the floor. We are called to give mercy to the outside world. It's a different context that we give that mercy than when we give it to the household of faith.

David Nakhla: 34:41

That's a good word to end on. Thank you for that, adrian and John and John, thank you for joining us today. Very helpful discussion and thankful for the opportunity to dive into this important text on caring for the widows in our congregations. Thank you, thank you, welcome. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformedeacon. org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.