Tim Hopper: 0:00

Deacons just in conversations we have with folks in the church can take opportunities that we get to educate people about what the diaconate does. A lot of Reformed churches we have folks that come from a variety of backgrounds, whether new believers or from different types of churches, where a deacon might mean or be a different thing. We should be ready to explain what we do and how we fit in the church.

David Nakhla: 0:21

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

John Stahl: 0:41

Hello, my name is John Stahl. I'm a deacon at Imanuel OPC in Wilmington, delaware. Today I'm joined by Adrian Crum, associate Pastor of Youth and Evangelism at Harvest OPC in Wyoming, Michigan, and Tim Hopper, a deacon at Shiloh OPC in Raleigh, North Carolina. We serve together on the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Today Adrian, Tim and I will be having a conversation, tossing around some ideas on how deacons can help their church understand what a deacon can do for them. So I think we'd agree that most know what Act 6 says about the role of a deacon serving the widows and needy of the church so the elders can devote themselves to the ministry of the word and prayer. But what does that look like in today's world, where we also have buildings and budgets to contend with?

John Stahl: 1:36

This topic arose from this anecdotal situation. Someone in a church had a serious health need, but didn't even think to approach the deacons. When this scenario was discussed, we wondered if it might be more common than we had imagined. So the question is why would this be and how can we attempt to fix it? How do we let people know that deacons do more than building maintenance and offerings, though that deacons do more than building maintenance and offerings? So I'd like to start with discussing how the deacons and elders might make it abundantly clear to the congregation that the deacons are there to serve the people. How can we communicate this better?

Tim Hopper: 2:16

In my own experience, the most formal way that we've done this for our congregation is at our annual congregational meeting and sometimes we have a second congregational meeting during the year. We'll give a deacon report and share some high level information on just the activities of the diaconate and our diaconal fund and we usually will take an opportunity there to try to impress on people what we're here for and let them know we're here to serve and that we try to discover and seek out ways in which we can serve folks. But sometimes we just don't know and we need folks to come to us and really try to get that message across with hopes that people will hear it by repetition and also people will hear it and then pass that along to others. Because you know, sometimes someone in the church will be having a discussion with another person and it's really helpful if that other person says you know you need to go talk to the deacons about this.

Adrian Crum: 3:11

I think it's very easy to reduce what a deacon does to kind of having a checkbook. Like if I need help, then I need to go to the deacons and ask for money. And I'm going to wait until the very, very last minute, when things are really, really serious and I'm at the edge of getting foreclosed on my home or defaulting on some other kind of loan, to then ask for diaconal help. And the reality is what the Bible teaches a deacon must be is a list of character qualities. I was very struck by that as I was reading the character qualities of 1 Timothy, chapter 3.

Adrian Crum: 3:50

It actually doesn't tell us exactly all the roles of a deacon. The Bible tells us there was a situation in Acts 6 that required the help of deacons, but we need men who have good judgment, who do not want to serve themselves, according to 1 Timothy 3. And then the field is relatively wide in terms of what a deacon is called to do for people. So I always encourage people in our church if you don't know what to do in a situation, ask one of your deacons if they need to give you some sort of wise counsel in many, many different areas of life, not only financial but other aspects of their life. I think it's very, very helpful for men who have been consistently praying for people, tracking people, giving them different kinds of advice to go to a deacon for that kind of help.

John Stahl: 4:33

So, Adrian, you're suggesting that the best way to do this is others to refer their fellow members to the deacons or the members to actually go to the deacons. And, Tim, you were talking more on the lines of a large group instruction during the annual meetings.

Tim Hopper: 4:53

I think also deacons just in conversations we have with folks in the church can take opportunities that we get to educate people about what the diaconate does. And there are a lot of our churches now, a lot of Reformed churches. We have folks that come from a variety of backgrounds, whether new believers or from different types of churches, where a deacon might mean or be a different thing, and it's just. You know, as we have those opportunities, we should be ready to explain what we do and how we fit in the church.

John Stahl: 5:23

Have either of you had the opportunity, or has the minister, the one who does new membership classes? Do you make sure that the role of deacon is presented there? I'm not sure that we do.

Adrian Crum: 5:37

I have never seen the diaconate described in a new membership class, so I think that's a wonderful idea. I think, unfortunately, the way that most people understand what deacons are is just observing deacons at their job in the different churches that they've been at, and unfortunately that is often restricted to things like making decisions about whether or not to expand a building or fix a building. I think it's helpful to teach at different ways in membership classes and in other contexts, what deacons do.

Tim Hopper: 6:07

Yeah, I think it'd be interesting too and I actually don't know how our pastors handle it either, but it'd be great for whoever's teaching the membership class to pull in a deacon and have them talk to the class for 15 minutes. I think that'd be a wonderful thing, yeah.

John Stahl: 6:21

At our church we, just within the last year, we've tried to have the deacons do an announcement actually before or during monthly fellowship meal, just to tell them what we're involved with some of the things that we're doing, and so that's an opportunity as well. So you've brought up the point about people coming from different backgrounds, different, even different reform congregations where the deacons do different things. Everyone has their own idea of what a deacon does, and I'm sure within the three churches represented here, the deacons do various things, have various responsibilities, do different services that may be unlike the other two, but why do you think that it's become the case that many people think of deacons as taking care of the building and the offering, but no more than that?

Adrian Crum: 7:16

I think unfortunately tend to want to reduce our job just generally I'll speak as a pastor before I speak about deacons we tend to want to reduce our job to the predictable rhythms of tasks that I can kind of check off the list. So I have to write a sermon this week. I'll check that off the list. I have to prepare a bulletin then also check that off the list. So I think deacons can then tend to restrict their jobs to specific tasks that they can check off the list. Right, you need the offering to be counted. I can. That's a very objective thing. I can then check off the list.

Adrian Crum: 7:46

People are more messy and they take a lot of time and, honestly, if we could have 10 hours of discipleship with someone for every one hour that we dedicate to answering the question, how much money should we give to them, I think that would be very, very worthwhile. But we are all restricted in how much time we have as officers in the church, and so I think that ends up being usually the restriction that we have how much time can we give to a situation and how can we dedicate the right kind of work to it? But I do think oftentimes prayer and good judgment and good counsel is what a lot of situations require.

Tim Hopper: 8:21

There's also just the practical aspect that the facilities work or things along those financial work are things that we can talk about and that people see, whereas you know a lot of more quote. You know, diaconal needs are things that we're going to be much more discreet about for good reason. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the reality of the situation and so that just puts the onus on us to do more education there. But it's it's not necessarily a bad thing that people see you, you know, fixing the toilet before the service and so they think, well, deacons fix the toilet before the service. Well, that's great that they.

Tim Hopper: 8:56

I think that's a good thing for a deacon to be doing potentially, and it's good for people to see deacons just willing to hop up and serve. But we can't just go publicize oh, we, you know, we talked to this widow for two hours after the service about this need, right? So it becomes an opportunity just for us again to educate the congregation. One thing we've started sharing in our diaconal reports one of the other deacons has started doing those reports and just sharing for each year in aggregate how many households or people within the congregation that we've helped. Not any specifics, but we've helped eight different families, or something to that effect, with the goal of sharing a little bit without breaking anyone's privacy, and let people know that that we are doing those things, cause it is very difficult to share any level of detail there.

John Stahl: 9:45

Yeah, that's a good point. I actually never considered that. Totaling up and reporting that we may do that for offerings but not for people, and that does. I think that's a good idea. I don't know whether it's true much in reform circles, but you know, I pretty much grew up in an evangelical environment and you know there was always the joke that well, the preacher, he has an easy job, he just preaches on Sunday morning, right, but that's his public position, that's his public role. But how many hours are spent in preparing that, as well as counseling and other administrative details and ministering evangelism. Whatever the minister does and you know the minister, the elders need to toot the minister's horn a little bit for his benefit and the congregants and similarly for us as deacons. Are there any other ideas that you may have to alleviate this issue where the congregation, the members, don't really understand what the deacons do or all that they do?

Tim Hopper: 10:55

I mean, there's the obvious. When the opportunity arises in preaching to talk about the diaconate, it's a good opportunity for the minister to educate the congregation. But there are potentially opportunities for Sunday school. You know, churches often around the time of officer nominations might do a short Sunday school series on the offices, which I think is a really helpful idea. But you know, I think we just really ultimately, whatever approach we choose, you have to be persistent and steady. For many of us, our congregations have a lot of new faces over time and they're just always new folks or children who are growing up in the congregation that need to be educated about it and you just really have to, I think, just do the slow drip of this over time and shape people's perspective and understanding.

Adrian Crum: 11:41

I think it's helpful also to realize that to pick up the phone and call a deacon is just daunting sometimes. And so I think to ask at times people who are struggling to know, should I even reach out to my deacon or not? Is my need big enough, whether it's financial or other kind of spiritual care? And I think I ask sometimes people is it okay if I call a deacon for you and they reach back to you and I'll just explain a little bit what's going on and they can talk to you? And I think that can be a helpful way to refer people together, because I think the best way to know what a deacon does is to actually speak with a deacon about something and get to benefit from their wisdom and their experience. And oftentimes it's not as scary as it seems to reach out and ask for help. So if they call you and kind of pray for you and walk you through the situation, you see how beneficial and practical the help of the deacon really is.

John Stahl: 12:29

And like what you said, Adrian, about, if somebody comes to you and you realize, oh, this is a diaconal issue, something that a deacon is not necessarily trained but gifted or certainly called to do, that you'll refer them to the deacon. I think that's important that the elders and ministers aren't trying to take on too much, because the deacon's role is to alleviate the burden of considering the members' physical needs and otherwise financial needs so they can dedicate themselves more to direct gospel ministry. So I will say also that I have, as a deacon, done some budget counseling, a little bit of career guidance when I can. There's other things emergency snow shoveling, things like that. I think as we're out doing those things and taking the initiative to do those things beyond building maintenance and taking offerings, that the membership will be more inclined. I had one member that I did some budget counseling with. That it helped him immensely and so I believe he's been sharing that experience with others. So you know, when it's not particularly sensitive, our work can be publicized, if you will, by the congregation, just naturally.

Tim Hopper: 13:49

I think one thing for deacons to cultivate is their reputation, and deacons should have within our church a reputation of men who are wise, who are able to listen and slow to speak, who are going to give thoughtful counsel, who know the word and are able to share that as they counsel folks. But that should humble us and challenge us, as me and John serving as deacons and those who are listening, that it's part of our calling as office to be above reproach and we should at times be reflecting on. Do we have within that congregation a reputation of someone who, if a person's in need and struggling, they're going to want to come and talk to us? And I think, if you can't answer that in the affirmative or you know, ask your spouse or your elders, your pastor, look for areas that you may need to grow there, because I think that impacts all of this discussion is having men that folks are going to want to actually come and talk to makes a big difference.

Adrian Crum: 14:44

Yeah, on the character question, I was looking at our Orthodox Presbyterian Book of Church Order, section 11, which is on deacons, and it says those chosen to this office should be of great faith, exemplary lives, honest repute, brotherly love, warm sympathies and sound judgment and I think those two things that Tim was just highlighting people are very wise and able to make a good decision in tricky and kind of complicated situations, but also who have compassion for people. I mean, I think a deacon with no compassion is sort of a contradiction in terms, and so developing that reputation, like Tim was talking about, is so important.

John Stahl: 15:20

And sometimes that compassion has to be tempered too. But certainly deacon without compassion, that doesn't really make sense, does it yeah?

Adrian Crum: 15:27

The compassionate thing to do it can be, say no to someone who's asking for a certain kind of help. For sure, telling someone the truth can often be a compassionate thing to do, but we also, like Tim said, we need to be receptive to someone coming to speak to us and be the kind of men that people desire to seek counsel from.

John Stahl: 15:43

And so we are dealing with some character, qualities and skills in communication, both public communication in larger groups and also at the individual level. So some deacons you know they already have experience on the public level and also ministering to people at the individual level. Yet there's others, particularly ones, I think, that are really good at doing fix-up things. I'm not, but I admire those that are good at that. Yet they might be fearful or inexperienced with the people side of things. Even though they may be compassionate, they don't have those speaking abilities. How can we help these deacons? What tools or helps can a session and diaconate use?

Tim Hopper: 16:38

In my own experience when I first became a deacon, I was fortunate to serve with two experienced deacons and just to get to really shadow them for quite some time and see how they handled discussions and conversations. I learned a lot from them and was able to emulate them and really shadow them until you know, at some point you get a discussion and they're not there and you just have to jump in and start doing it. And I know not everyone's able to be in that position where you're able to serve with experienced deacons, but that's one of the biggest ways. But I think, also having a reasonable expectation, we have our congregational meeting this Sunday and we'll have a deacon presenting our deacon report. That we do at those meetings and not everybody on our diaconate has interest in doing that and I don't think there's an obligation for everyone to do that necessarily.

Tim Hopper: 17:32

I mean, I think it's not a requirement for deacons to be able to speak in front of people, but I think you know those who struggle just in one-on-one discussions or you know those smaller type discussions need to think about how to grow there and you know, like I said, through watching others. But also, again, you know our deacons need to grow in wisdom, do they know the word and know how to share from the word to others and do they have that wisdom to share? And then sometimes, beyond that, folks just need some confidence and maybe they need just encouragement from their pastor. Like, you actually do have a lot to offer here, you don't? You're maybe aren't going to be an all-star public speaker, but you don't need to worry about that. Just share from your knowledge and from the Word and from your own experience and watch for the fruit to come out of that.

Adrian Crum: 18:19

Yeah, that's wonderful, don't have much to add. 1 Timothy 3, verse 9, says they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. So, deacons, if you do desire to be a deacon in a church, you should hold the gospel and hold the Bible very, very confidently, with a clear conscience. Like it says, you do not need to be a professional orator right, you're not being ordained as a teacher or a preacher when you're a deacon but you need to be rooted in the Bible. You need to hold with confidence all of the scriptures and then live that out.

Adrian Crum: 18:53

And I think the example of deacons is very, very significant too. It says in 1 Timothy 3 that they must be husbands of one wife and manage their children and their own households well. And I think, as people in the congregation watch someone living their life in a way that's worthy of being emulated, like Tim was just talking about they will also want to come and ask for advice from someone like that. So I think being asked to give advice, even if you don't love to talk, is a great way suggesting may not always be the deacon taking an initiative, but as a response to those coming to him.

Tim Hopper: 19:37

I will promote a resource I think I've promoted on the podcast before, but a book very influential on me was the letters of John Newton. John Newton, the author of Amazing Grace, wrote many, many letters that have been preserved and there are several editions. I really like the hardcover Banner of Truth edition. But just his ability to empathize with people and care for them and speak the truth to them and apply the scriptures in careful ways to people in difficult circumstances was very helpful for me and it continues to be helpful to me and I encourage deacons to go pick up a copy of that and read through it. It's not a big narrative. I took years to read through it for the first time and you can just slowly plod through it. But I think there's a lot to be learned from John Newton that's helpful for deacons.

John Stahl: 20:24

Might there be any other resources that are available or used by either the deacons or the session and for training purposes or encouraging the congregation, and even encouraging the deacons themselves.

Tim Hopper: 20:37

Hopefully The Reformed Deacon Podcast. That's what we're aspiring to here and we have, I think, three years of backlog now that folks can go and listen to and a lot of that content is going to be largely timeless. But yeah, I think we've produced good resources.

Adrian Crum: 20:56

If someone wants to read a full book form version. The best book that I have read about the diaconate is by Cornelis Van Dam. The Deacon: Biblical Foundations for Today's Ministry of Mercy and he walks through every period of redemptive history, so a ministry through the Old Testament. The New Testament times talks about the office of deacon in the history of the church and the current function of the office, and one of the points he makes in that book I was looking at that before this podcast today is that in the Old Covenant there were no ministers of mercy as official deacons in that sense, and so all of the congregation of Israel was expected to serve. And I think that's a good reminder as well that we don't require or expect the deacons to do all of the mercy ministry in a church.

John Stahl: 21:41

I think we had mentioned this before the deacons are set apart to encourage others to do that and certainly to be examples in that. So there certainly is a definite aspect of leadership in that we're taking initiative and ensuring that needs are being met. But as part of it is, you know, the people open up to those that they have relationships with, and so often members have relationships with others that aren't deacons, and so it's important to encourage the membership to, when someone approaches them with a diacon, lead as well. They can give them counsel and help as they can. But to encourage the membership should encourage one another to go to the deacons. So, Tim, you mentioned about the use of the Reformed Deacon podcast. Are there any specific episodes that might be helpful specifically for a deacon in pursuing more of a counseling in spiritual matters that may be related certainly to the physical or financial needs? Sure, yeah, A few episodes, a recent one we did physical or financial needs.

Tim Hopper: 22:48

Sure, yeah, a few episodes. A recent one we did Finding the Next Deacon from February of 2025, the Heart of a Deacon from September of 2024, how the Westminster Standards Relate to Deacons from April 2024, a Study of Act 6 with Charles Biggs. That's June 2023. There's also not on the podcast but on the CDM website a lecture that Pastor Nick Wilborn, who's a PCA pastor, gave here for the podcast but on the CDM website, a lecture that Pastor Nick Willborn, who's a PCA pastor, gave here for the Presbytery of the Southeast, called the Deacon has no Small Office that you can listen to. I'm sure there are others as well, but we have again, I think, some really good episodes in the podcast history and encourage folks to go back and catch up on those if you haven't on those?

John Stahl: 23:34

if you haven't, let's switch gears just a little bit and think in terms of our Presbytery Diaconal Committees. How can the Presbytery Diaconal Committees help individual diaconates with this issue of really training, encouraging congregation in what the deacons do? I know sometimes we've heard in presbyteries that committee may not be particularly active but then we have others. Like in our presbytery, we do give a committee report, verbally or written, each quarter to the presbytery. Do you have any ideas there and how the presbytery diaconal committees might be able to help within their presbytery?

Adrian Crum: 24:17

So for the Presbyterian Diaconal Committees, I think they are one of the least used resources in terms of committees at different levels. So we believe that the local church is where God serves his people, both through the word and through mercy, either out of resources or just needs counsel, we do recommend that you, after you've worked through things on a local level, you raise that issue to your presbytery's diaconal committee. Now, one reason that it can be not a very visible committee in your presbytery is we tend to have mostly deacons on that committee and in the case of the diaconal committee of our presbytery, as an example, for a while we actually had only deacons on that committee and the minister's spot had not been filled. So I think it's just really, really necessary to remember that a regional church, so the presbytery, should come alongside its local churches to support and encourage deacons, and at times that can be just a really encouraging experience.

Adrian Crum: 25:21

I do serve on the diaconal committee of our presbytery and I just recently had a case where someone reached out and I can tell pretty quickly that the need is not a financial or physical need. There's going to be just needs that will require some care, some prayer and diaconal care for that congregation, and so it's a really good resource to do that. And then also at the General Assembly level, there are times when a matter can be brought up to our denominational committee.

John Stahl: 25:48

Tim, do you have any thoughts in that regard? You are the moderator, I believe, for yours.

Tim Hopper: 25:54

Yeah, the chairman for the Presbytery of the Southeast Committee for a number of years now and I've been reflecting on this question. I don't think I have any really profound answers beyond what Adrian shared, except that I think part of what I aspire to do and have our committee do is and really what the CDM wants to be doing is just encourage our deacons and as we're trying to think about helping our local deaconates serve our congregations better, I think sometimes just what they need is encouragement and just to understand how much they have to offer the congregation. And so, you know, hopefully through our education not like on the podcast again and through the National Diaconal Summit, which we'll be hearing about more soon it'll be coming up next year, in 2026. Hopefully we're encouraging our diaconates to take hold of what they've been given in their ordination and the calling that the Lord's given them to serve their churches.

Tim Hopper: 26:45

As Dr Willborn said in this video from our Presbytery Conference, the deacon is no small office and make sure our deacons know that and I think you know, as they can see, that it's not to build them up and build up their ego, but to build up the size of their servanthood and their willingness to lay down their lives for the well-being of their brothers and sisters in the church and I think you know we have a lot of churches in the OPC that have small diaconates 0, 1, 2 guys. Those churches are the ones that are most on my mind as a presbytery diaconal committee member, wanting to just be able to encourage them and let them know they're not alone and that we're able to equip them and back them up as needed and hopefully that reinvigorates them to go and use their gifts for the sake of the congregation.

John Stahl: 27:37

So I don't know if we're accomplishing that as the church, as a church leadership, can encourage others to come to the deacons when they know what the deacon's role is and their character, their desire to be there for the members. But we also know that people may know what the deacons do but they hold back out of a sense of being ashamed right, and that happens a lot. How can we reassure them? So it's not just an educational issue at this point ignorance, but of being ashamed, that there's a fear of going to the deacons.

Adrian Crum: 28:19

So people can fall into need because of their sin, sometimes right. So if someone is addicted to gambling, they may end up coming to the deacons for help with a sin addiction. But there are also many needs that come not because of sin or guilt, but they still produce shame. So when a man loses his job, for instance, unfortunately we often equate our identities with our job. A man loses his job, there's an abundant amount of shame over the fact that they're without employment, and I think just reassuring someone and saying, hey, in the Lord's providence, this is what has happened, I think maybe taking more initiative in those situations, likely deacons will have to take the first step, because it is so shameful for someone to feel like they are in a great physical need.

Adrian Crum: 29:06

I think, even with guilt, though, even when, let's say, a financial need has come on one of our congregants because of a sin issue in their life. It's just good to remember that Paul and Peter had massive sin failings in their lives, that Peter denied Christ three times and that's recorded very publicly in the Gospels, and he comes back in the epistle of Peter and speaks about the grace of Christ toward him, and then Paul testifies that it's a trustworthy thing that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. So I think pursuing people over and over again with the reassurances of the gospel is not only something that a pastor needs to do from the pulpit, but deacons need to do as they reassure people. Nothing in our lives do we have because we deserve it or because we merit it. It's all because of the grace and the love of God and hopefully that pushes back against some of the shame and the guilt that people feel before coming to the deacons.

Tim Hopper: 30:04

I think there's another thing often, as people have financial needs, just their issues, that are often not necessarily sin, but just they realize they've been unwise or foolish with their money and sometimes people really need a firm word about that. But one thing I tell people every time is look, none of our deacons have just managed our money perfectly and hopefully we're setting examples. We can all point to cars we shouldn't have bought or, you know, I don't know, just different decisions that were not the right decision to make. And yeah, I mean hopefully just have that humility to let people know you know you're not coming to somebody who's just done everything perfectly with their money, because I don't think any of us can do that. But I think also in the bigger picture, something I've already alluded to but about our reputations within the church is do we have a reputation of someone who's just gonna, you know, beat somebody over the head when they come with a concern? Or do we have a reputation as deacons, of someone who's going to listen and help and provide the guidance and counsel and not be afraid to speak up but be able to speak the truth in love and be able to have whatever discussion needs to be had?

Tim Hopper: 31:14

And many of us who serve as deacons John, you're an exception, I imagine, but many of us don't just have a reputation of just being a friendly, warm, bubbly, chatty person and I think a lot of us are very action-focused and we're there at church looking for what needs to be done, always doing things, not somebody necessarily who's just going to go around and greet everybody and just be the warmest person in the room.

Tim Hopper: 31:41

But at the same time we need to consider the priority in our role of serving the people in our church. And one thing our deacons have done over the last number of years now it's been a multi-year effort is try to free the deacons on Sundays from being so overburdened by every different responsibility that they don't have time to just know the people in the church and be able to have conversations with folks in the church. So you know, trying to have our deacons not being the usher and the security guy and the sound guy and you know you can end up doing everything but instead sharing the load on that within the church and then just having the deacons able to just go know people and foster those relationships. As those relationships are fostered, it just makes those diaconal discussions so much easier. So there's work that can be done ahead of time, before these conversations that happen. That can make them much better.

Adrian Crum: 32:40

I think one last thing on just reassuring people who feel shame may just be to remember that deacons are ambassadors or representatives of Christ. If you think about the posture that Christ had toward people in need, even people who were very, very ashamed in different ways, his heart towards them was to correct them at times, to challenge them, but also to be very, very merciful and to love them. And so I think, with the same honoring that Christ had for those who had different kinds of sins and sufferings, and the way that he forgave and challenged and corrected and loved and was merciful with them, again, the position that a deacon is in as they receive someone in need is to set Christ in front of that person.

John Stahl: 33:27

Yeah, I think that's a real good point and the members should understand that the deacon is, like you said, an ambassador, really not a minister of the gospel and not in the official term, but a minister.

John Stahl: 33:41

And if so, then you know, we go to the Lord Often knowing the goodness of the Lord and His forgiveness. We go to Him a lot sooner with our needs and prayer than we would to another human being, another person especially, maybe even within the church, and more an official, an officer of the church. And so if they could understand that that's the case, that if we're ministering hopefully, as Christ would minister imperfectly that they should be able to come to them and we speak to ourselves that way too, as fellow deacons, you know, going to one another, going to others in the church and confessing our faults. So one last question we may have answered this, but how can we make it known that deacons can be a sort of sounding board, somewhere to go for advice you know there might not be a specific need, but just to go for counsel. Don't want to always have all the answers, but at least there's somebody they know that they can go to.

Tim Hopper: 34:50

I think we've alluded to a lot of the answers here, but again, having session members and the pastors recognize these situations and say, hey, you should go talk to your deacons about this the deacons building that reputation and just have a history of doing this within the congregation. But at the same time with that, I think there's also there's a humility reputation to be built to that our deacons don't just think we can solve everything or know everything and know which times we need to say I don't know, but maybe we can find someone together who can help you and not just try to be something he's not.

Adrian Crum: 35:23

Yeah, it does take humility to say I don't have an answer for you.

Adrian Crum: 35:27

Oftentimes the problems again, by the time that a problem comes to a deacon, there can be so many different interrelated marital issues or work issues or other tensions and different relationships that have been caused by the situation.

Adrian Crum: 35:42

So I think it's like Tim just said, being able to say, wow, that's really really difficult and painful. I don't even know where to start. But let's pray and just take one step at a time. I think it's good to remember if someone particularly has experience as a deacon, when you go to seek out counsel and advice, you're getting all of the previous cases that that person has thought through hopefully kind of summarized for you. So they're not speaking to you as sort of the first time they've ever thought about an issue, but they're actually bringing the many, many different situations that they've thought about in the past and then offering you their counsel. So they're hopefully not requiring something of you but, as we've said already, it's a wisdom question oftentimes and someone taking all of those different situations that they've been engaged with in the past in the church and offering you a possible decision can be really beneficial.

John Stahl: 36:33

Yeah, the deacon's job, really any kind of minister's job we do need to trust the Lord to keep us humble, and yet we need to trust the Lord to be confident in His Word and what we're called to do, so there's that balance that only the Lord can accomplish in our lives. Well, this was a really good conversation. I appreciate, Tim and Adrian both of you and your work on our committee together, but also in your individual churches, and having this discussion, I hope will be a blessing to the other deacons and even members as they listen to this podcast.

David Nakhla: 37:10

Thank you, john Thanks.

Adrian Crum: 37:11

John.

David Nakhla: 37:11

Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeaconorg. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.