Bob Keys: 0:00

This is what I always like ways to verify her story, and there are ways you can do this. Tell her at some point, appropriately, we do not give cash, our policy is never to give cash and then watch her response. Watch her eyes, watch her body language. That will tell you immensely where she's coming from.

David Nakhla: 0:21

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon. A casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help the Reformed Deacon. A casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Tim Hopper: 0:40

Hello, this is Tim Hopper. I'm a deacon at Shiloh Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Raleigh, north Carolina, and a member of the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. On today's episode of the Reformed Deacon, we're doing another real-world cases discussion with two voices that you've heard before on these real-world cases Mr Lynn Hunter, who's a deacon at Harvest OPC in Michigan, and Mr Bob Keyes, who's a deacon at Grace OPC in Ohio. Both of these brothers have served their churches for many years and have a lot of wisdom to share. Welcome, lynn and Bob. Thank you Good morning. Before we dive in, I want to do a quick shout out to a deacon, joel Vander Kooi from Redeemer OPC in Airdrie, alberta, canada, for sending in a few of the scenarios we're using today. Thank you very much, joel, and to our listeners if you've got ideas, we'd love to hear them. You can tap the text us under our logo in your podcast app or send an email to mail at thereformeddeaconorg. And just to let you know, joel is getting a very nice Reformed Deacon t-shirt for contributing these case studies. Guys, let's jump into our first scenario. We have four today.

Tim Hopper: 1:53

It's the end of the year and you discover you have a surplus in the church budget. What do you do with it? Should it be used to pay off the mortgage or put it towards the building fund? Do we give our missionaries above what we have committed to them already? Do we put it towards the building fund? Do we give our missionaries above what we have committed to them already? Do we split it among causes that we collect for? Do we roll it forward to next year's budget? How should we handle this surplus situation? I think actually, before we jump into this, maybe a useful data point would be just a glimpse of how your deacons are involved in your church budget and finances at the general budget level. Our deacons are involved in your church budget and finances at the general budget level.

Bob Keys: 2:26

Our deacons are primarily the ones that do the initial budgeting of each year. We put the budget together. It takes about two months to do it, maybe even three. So we start early and we get input from the congregation and then, once we put it together, we agree on it as deacons. Then we move it then to the elders and let them go over it and make any changes that they see are necessary. But we talk to pastors, we talk to so many people about it and work together. We have one primary guy that I'm going to refer to here because I asked him about it. He's our finance guy. He is a certified public accountant, and so he does an excellent job for us certified public accountant and so he does an excellent job for us, and so that's how we do it, and all I can say is that he's just so important to our congregation to put our budget together.

Lynne Hunter: 3:17

Well, harvest is. On the other end, we have a group of trustees. They take care of all budgeting matters concerning the church. The only money they do not have responsibility for is the benevolent fund, and they take care of the budget. They would decide what would happen on this rollover and then it becomes just like Bob's church. Once they have the budget set, they send it to the sessions and session approves it or make suggestions of changes approves it or makes suggestions of changes. In the case of this excess, first question that came to me is have they paid all their presbytery and general assembly dues? If it's excess, after that, then I'm going to look at what Harvest has done, where they have split that excess and taken a given part of it to benevolent fund and the rest goes out to missionaries that we support within our presbytery. We have a building fund that is part of the budget. If we had a major building program going on, that might be something that we'd contribute to, but we put the spreading of the gospel ahead of building brick and mortar.

Tim Hopper: 4:28

The Harvest, I believe, is the largest congregation in the OPC and I think probably things are going to potentially be more maybe structured than some of our churches, so I think that's useful as just for folks who are listening, to keep in mind you might not do things exactly the same way. I think we're all actually from relatively large congregations, OPC wise, so take that for what it is.

Bob Keys: 4:50

Tim, we're not from that big as a harvest, but this question reminds me of our own personal budgets. Life's full of changes. Our lives are full of changes, and so we really need to plan, even with our own accesses, what we're going to do with it, and we each have so many different ways to go. We need a new car, we need a new down payment for a house that we want to purchase, we have a hot water tank or a roof that needs to be replaced, we have a new baby coming, we have retirement and we have even a college expenses for our children. This is the same as our church at least. We have so many different things that take need, and they change each year. In our cases, they change. I'll mention just a few that our church has had in the last five or 10 years that have needed a lot of money put towards them, and I think we've always got to look ahead.

Bob Keys: 5:38

What do we need to continue our ministry, to grow the church and to grow his people? And, for instance, we're starting a new church 30 miles from our church this coming year. What's that going to take? It's going to take money, not only from the denomination, the presbytery, but it's also going to take our money, and so we're starting to already plan for that new church to be funded by our church, and that takes money. We also need a new flooring.

Bob Keys: 6:05

A year and a half ago and we got a big building, so that was a huge expense in our building fund. We brought on a third pastor a year and a half ago and that was a huge new transition as well. And if you don't plan for that, you can't do it. You've got to grow and you've got to plan for that major expense. You're talking about a hundred plus thousands of dollars to fund that third pasture and then adding on to our facilities. We've added on maybe 12 years ago and there's even talk about adding on again and that's not a one year or two year or three year plan. That's major. You don't want to go into huge debt and so you're talking about millions for any kind of substantial building expansion program.

Bob Keys: 6:45

So those are the kind of things that you've got to look in the future and say these are the kind of things we need to grow and to be a productive church of Jesus Christ. What do we need to continue that growth and that ministry to people? And so I agree with Lynn. Our ministry to people is what we've always got to plan for and always got to look carefully what do we need and how can we plan wisely for the things that we need? And the Lord does provide. That's the other thing. We've always had a surplus at Grace the last 10, 15 years, and the way in which we use that money shows us our love and our dedication to our Savior.

Tim Hopper: 7:20

Very good answers, guys. I wouldn't change much in my own situation other than mentioning something that hasn't been mentioned, which is one option for folks is just making additional contributions to the OPC Worldwide Outreach Fund, which supports our home missions, foreign missions and Christian education the past with funds, and that can be a big help there. But yeah, I think there's not, obviously there's just not a single answer to this. It's something that everybody's going to have to consider in their own situation. But I think to Bob's point, very wise to be thinking proactively about this and not just letting it come and surprise you.

Bob Keys: 7:57

Can I put in what my finance guy? He's a certified public accountant. He had a great statement here and I'd like to read it. In situations where giving has exceeded expenses for a particular year, it is important to handle that surplus wisely. As a board of deacons, we might ask one another does the church already have sufficient reserves in its general fund? If so, the next question might be what long-term capital projects for our church are on the horizon. Are those adequately funded, or should some of those surpluses be set aside for other such projects? When it comes to thinking about paying off a down payment on a mortgage, contemplate the current interest rate the church is paying, the length of time remaining on the mortgage and the amount that would be saved if you pay it off or don't pay it off, and then process that based on other needs that are important in the future for the church.

Tim Hopper: 8:49

Very good. No, that's a great answer.

Bob Keys: 8:51

That was Andrew's answer. By the way, he's a wise man. That's what Deacon's all about is having men that are gifted I'm not gifted in taking care of all the finances, but boy Andrew is, and that's just the blessing of the church is to have men that are good.

Tim Hopper: 9:05

Yeah, I think that's something that always is so clear in these discussions. Having a multitude of counselors and being able to have these discussions, I think, helps us make better decisions here. Let's move on to scenario number two. This one's a little bit longer of a setup.

Tim Hopper: 9:20

Paula seems familiar. As you talk to her, you are wondering whether she has visited before today. She has been sharing with you that she has a single mom and a widow living in an extended stay low budget hotel. Your guess is that she's in her early forties. She's approached you after the service to request help with rent for a week. She does not have a car. She works part-time doing cleaning, but primarily lives on SSDI, which is Social Security Disability, which provides monthly payments to people with disabilities and older adults who have little or no income resources. Paula gets food stamps. She's missed a couple shifts this week and is short on rent money. She is pleasant, clean, polite, dressed, neatly and seems intelligent, though admittedly not highly educated. You have offered her some food from the church food pantry, but she only has a hot plate to cook on and so she can't really use it. You have about $20 of cash in your wallet and there's probably $50 in cash available at the church in the deacon's cabinet. What are your thoughts?

Lynne Hunter: 10:18

First time she's asked. We're probably going to help, but it's not going to be with cash. It's going to be a check written out to the person that she pays her rent to or company that she pays her rent to. And the reason we're going to help is this gives me an opportunity to continue talking with her with a follow-up basis of how things going, inviting her back to church the next week, getting to know her a little more, getting her under gospel preaching, maybe on a weekly basis or twice a Sunday. But this always gives us an opening to help and to get into somebody's life. And then we'll start taking care of maybe some other issues budgeting issues down the road. But let's first get this first chance and use it wisely to get into her life.

Bob Keys: 11:12

I like your response. This is a hard one. This is a tough situation for every deacon. If they're in the diaconate long enough, they're going to experience these kind of difficult situations. I think it takes two steps and I'll mention both of them. The first one is wisdom and discernment. I think this is what is so needed for every deacon, and Acts talks about it as well. Men of wisdom. The second is diaconal care and stewardship. That Lynn talked about wisely, and I'm going to talk about each one of those specifically.

Bob Keys: 11:44

I want to believe Paula. You want to believe she has really wanted a relationship with the church. You really want to believe she is telling you everything truthfully. But wisdom and discernment are required. The majority of the time in these situations like Paula's, the person is simply attempting to get the church to give them cash so they can spend it on what they want. This is where wisdom and discernment come in.

Bob Keys: 12:08

First. I thank God and praise God that she's calm and she's talking in the church. Praise God, you don't take that for lightly. It's important that you see that as a great opportunity for the gospel of Christ. But I would ask her many questions and again, going into it, you have to realize this is going to take time, energy, stress from one or two or more deacons, and so you don't go into this thinking it's just a five or ten minute time. This takes time, energy and, I guarantee, stress. Not easy. Some of the questions I would ask. And you're looking to find out her full story. If you've got time, take her. Make sure you're not alone. I'll talk about that several times. You're not alone with it.

Bob Keys: 12:49

Where has she attended church in the past? I think that's one of the most important questions you can ask her. What other relationships has she had with the church of Jesus Christ, true Bible-believing churches? Has she had any? And if she hasn't, that probably changes things as well. How long has she been a widow? You don't know. Ask her how long she's been a widow. How old are her children and how many children does she have and why didn't they come with her? Does she have other family in the area? Is she living with anyone other than her children? Interesting question. I think that's important. Does she have a boyfriend? Does she live with another woman? What else is going on in that home? Even in that hotel, it's a home. How did she learn about your church? Important question how did she get to your church today? Who drove her there? If you don't know of a hotel close? Someone drove her there, and where is the hotel that she's living at now and how long has she been there? I mean, these aren't all the questions. These are just some typical kind of questions I would ask right off the bat.

Bob Keys: 13:39

In this situation, you must ask questions where you can verify her truthfulness, and I want to believe them. I told you from the very beginning I want to believe her story, but you've got to find out whether she's really truthful. So I encourage you to bring another deacon, if you can, when you're talking with her, so another deacon can hear and ask questions. Bring your wife along, bring her right there beside you and let her be a part of that conversation with this woman. My rules, and Lynn, you hit on the first one Never, never, give cash.

Bob Keys: 14:12

Never, even with your own congregants. It's just not wise to give cash. You're right. If you're going to give anything, you're going to give a check directly to the hotel. Exactly, lynn, you couldn't be more right. No, being alone with this woman. I can't emphasize that enough. You're jeopardizing your own person and the church. You're a deacon, so make sure you have another deacon or your wife with you at all times or the congregation around you. You've got to have all those protections when you do this kind of work and do not tell her right off the bat that you're going to help her.

Bob Keys: 14:47

I would try to verify what I'm talking about sufficiently before you say anything about giving anything. And if you do, then give her one to two days rent, not a week or two or five or 10. One or two days will get you more time. And the other thing always be willing to give food. She's got a hot plate. I'll give her a microwave. I got a spare microwave. I'll give her a microwave, but give her food. Food stamps aren't sufficient generally for someone to live off, and so food should be your primary way to give help.

Bob Keys: 15:15

Ask her to come to your evening service. That is a big one, I mean. If you've got an evening service, that is just the primary way to get her back in, where you can have more time to talk to the deacons and you can set up a way in which you can do it in terms of verifying more about what she's doing and get her more involved in the services and other women Ways to verify her story. This is what I always like. I like ways to verify her story and there are ways you can do this. If you're really astute, you can do it.

Bob Keys: 15:42

Tell her at some point appropriately we do not give cash. Our policy is never to give cash and then watch her response. Watch her eyes, watch her body language. That will tell you immensely where she's coming from. Get good at that. Look her straight in the eyes and say our policy is we cannot give you cash, and then just give it a few seconds and see how she responds. Tell her that you can drive her home she didn't have a car so you can drive her home with your wife or another deacon and that you can meet with the hotel manager. The hotel manager is going to tell you, but you can certainly work with her and the hotel manager to arrange for whatever it needs if it goes that far.

Bob Keys: 16:29

Most of the time it will not go that far if she's not telling the truth, but if she is, you'll get an opportunity to see where she's living. Ask her to bring her kids down. Don't go into her apartment. Do not go into her apartment. Have the kids come down and meet with you and your wife and by doing that you're going to learn a tremendous amount.

Bob Keys: 16:49

I'm assuming that she's 45, her kids are going to be grown, maybe 16, 18, 20, 30. So, again, having the kids come down, I think, is another great, great opportunity to get you involved with their family. I think these are the kind of things I would. And again, I'm not sure that you're going to be able to get her SSI paperwork and documentation and other verifications, food stamps but that's another approach as well and I probably wouldn't take that one. But it's another way to clearly verify that she's really in the kind of need that she's in. You know, it's just another option you have, but I probably wouldn't use that, at least initially. But getting to the hotel and seeing the office manager there will tell you a tremendous amount about the real situation, if you can get that far.

Lynne Hunter: 17:27

I'll give you one more thing we have at Harvest because of the metropolitan area that we live in, we have a basically it's a clearing houses for churches. It's called access and what we do on any of these cases whether they come into this church they're not church members we get their driver's license number, last four, their social security, their phone number and date of birth and this all goes to this clearinghouse. That clearinghouse then has a record of churches helping. If they see this person has A, they've gone to church A, church B and they're at harvest, that makes red flag. But if there's no red flags now, they have a record of hey, harvest is helping this person with this amount of money and if that comes up on their radar again then they can flag it for other churches.

Lynne Hunter: 18:21

The other thing this does is on bigger needs. They also help with finding new housing or getting more than one church involved to pay a larger bill. We've helped with larger hospital bills through this group. So use all your resources. Don't just think it's just your church that has to foot this or take care of it all. There's lots more resources out in the world that we can use to help on these situations.

Bob Keys: 18:50

I agree with you, len. We have an organization we work with in Columbus and they are really good. They're certainly Christian, bible-based, and we use them to help us with more specifics that we are not as good at as they are, and so we volunteer at times with them and they know us. We've had men that have really led some of their areas of ministry and so we work closely with them on these kind of things as well, and I agree, if you can have someone in your community to help you walk beside these people, it's so important. I had a couple other things and I didn't talk enough about the diaconal care and stewardship. I think this is the other section that's so important. This is a gospel ministry and, as I mentioned, it's so important that we care for these people that come to our churches that need help. This is diaconal ministry and I think, as the story proves to be truthful and right, we want to connect this woman and her family with other godly women and children in our church, get them involved in a Bible study and bring their children to see the gospel of Christ acted out in a godly way in our church and this shows them the gospel the children need to see the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is so important, and so, if they really are there, we want them as well. We want to present the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.

Bob Keys: 20:09

I think one thing that we do not do well as deacons and I am learning to do this better and better is to pray with and for these people that come. Well, all are diaconal ministry people. Whatever we do diaconally, we should be praying with them and for God's work in their hearts and their lives. We should pray for her life, for her heart, and that she'll come back and be involved and continue to receive the love and care in the community of believers of Jesus Christ, and we should also share the simple gospel of Christ with her again and again, in concert with the diaconal ministry that she's receiving. I think it's most important of all. I mean, if we're not doing this, then we're not really doing diaconal care and stewardship. It has to do with her heart and what we can do in terms of ministering to her heart for the cause of Christ. We can give her all the things in the world, but the most important thing she has are hope and Christ.

Tim Hopper: 21:00

Great answers, guys. One follow-up here is we have often, in situations like this, gone straight to the hotel or wherever the person's staying and just tried to pay, even just showing up at the desk and just paying ourselves. And often you know a budget hotel, they're not going to complain about somebody doing that. We've had things happen like finding out someone said, oh, I can't afford my rent this week, and then you find out they've just been going around to churches and they're prepaid for weeks ahead of time through doing this kind of thing. Or a similar situation a woman saying, oh, I need a hotel because I'm in this shelter, but the shelter has all these problems I think she was saying it had bedbugs and all these things. And we spoke to the shelter and found out this lady was just a serial liar about things that's going on.

Tim Hopper: 21:45

And, bob, you've alluded several times to getting the truthful story. But how do we handle these situations? And maybe this needs to be a whole nother real world discussion podcast. But how do we handle these situations? If someone is lying, it doesn't mean that they don't need help. How do we handle them lying to us?

Bob Keys: 22:03

I think you pray with don't let them get out the door without prayer. I think you're going towards the heart and we all sin and we all fall short of the glory of God. But Christ, that's our hope. Bring them back. It's never too late to help someone with mercy, ministry, and so, again, if you find they're lying, don't just shut them out. Pray with them, encourage them, talk about the gospel, what that means, what that really means in this situation, and offer more help. Come back, be a part of the church. We are here, we want to serve you, we want to show you the love of Christ. Come back and let us talk with you and encourage you and bless you.

Tim Hopper: 22:44

Very good. I'll just mention one other thing before we move on. I think that what Grand Rapids has in terms of a church kind of clearinghouse thing is unusual and not unusual in a bad way, it's just not very common but a great thing. But there is also for those in the US, the United Way, which is not a Christian organization at all. I think all over the US you can dial 211 on the phone and get in touch with the United Way, which they provide information about community resources that may or may not be religious affiliated and all the caveats about maybe, if they are religious affiliated. But if someone is saying they can't afford housing and you're wanting to find out what are the resources that may be available outside our church, in your community, your local United Way, which you can access through 211, is a good place to start there.

Tim Hopper: 23:27

Let's move on to our next case. This is a short one. The church is approached by a charity seeking support. What are the criteria you're going to use before supporting a cause? Do your deacons have a prepared flow chart type decision process that you handle on a case-by-case basis? How do you think through this?

Bob Keys: 23:45

I think the best way to handle it is ahead. This is something you can prepare for, I think, up ahead with leadership of the church, I think. Develop a clear church policy with the elders and deacons concerning how the church ordinarily gives to or doesn't give to charities. I think there's three areas here. There are probably more, but I'll mention three. Identify clearly charities which the leadership specifically wants to support and to the extent they want to support them. I think we have several charities that we know that we want to give towards, and so we specifically set out monies each year for those to give towards, and so we specifically set out monies each year for those. And it's clear and we have definite reasons why we're doing it.

Bob Keys: 24:29

Number two is determine how to handle charities or giving members of the church that have requests for things that they're doing mission projects or things like that charities even outside the church, within and without the church. Get an idea how to handle members and their requests. Be clear Again. Remember you have congregants that can give to this and want to give to this. So be wise in how you set your policy and how you can best serve the church and serve your members in your policy. And the last one I have is to Christian charities that have really no relationship with your church. And this is the final one. I mean I surely wouldn't want to give to non-Christian charities. I can't see many reasons why we'd want to do that. Maybe, but Christian charities possibly. But how do we do that? And I think again, talk about it, work it out with the leadership and decide early on so that there's no misunderstandings, no questions. When you have a request, you know kind of what answer you need to be given.

Lynne Hunter: 25:30

Yeah, we do pretty much the same thing. We have a list of basically they're mostly mission work that we prepare at the beginning of our fiscal year every year, and we have a collection schedule. Some of them are in the general budget, but the rest of them are part of a special collection schedule that we put out at the beginning of the year and any of those congregation is allowed to contribute to any time of the year. Ones that come through us let's say they've sent a letter and it's gotten to the secretary, who's handed it to me we as a diaconate will then start vetting them. What are their Christian principles? What is their belief? Are they Reformed? Are they Calvinist?

Lynne Hunter: 26:10

And we have strained more than one of them out and said, no, we're not going to help because they just don't line up with what we do or what we believe as a church. Those ones that are other ones, it's basically all case by case, and so then you know, go back to the diaconate and then, if it's a big enough issue, it'll go to session. But more than likely we have already got done all the background work before it even gets to a deacon's meeting. So that you know, one or two deacons have worked on this, gotten all the information, presented it at a deacon's meeting and it either goes forward or it doesn't go forward. But basic criteria does their doctrine line up with our doctrine? Our whole job is to help promote the gospel.

Tim Hopper: 26:56

Only in Grand Rapids do you have the privilege of asking if the charities are Calvinist, though.

Lynne Hunter: 27:03

Okay, so you can look at it in a different way. You look at their statement of faith and say is that statement of faith lining up with the statement of faith of any OPC church? Yes, basically an OPC church, whether it's in Ohio or Pennsylvania or Canada, our statements of faith are all the same. So is this charity's statement of faith lining up with what we believe? So okay, you can take the Calvinist part out and say does the statement of faith line up with what we believe?

Tim Hopper: 27:44

these quote Christian ministries, evangelical ministries that are believing that their ultimate purpose is seeing people to come to know the Savior and not. We're helping you find your own way, your own path, which is, you know, we have a lot of very liberal churches here that have various kinds of ministries that we would be less likely to support.

Bob Keys: 27:59

I think it's important. Our deacons always see it important to talk with the elders if we have any question. I think you can get into a lot of trouble if you really just move ahead as deacon board to approve things. So we normally, if it's not within the OPC charity type stuff, we generally are contacting our elders and letting them weigh in as well on what we think. So I think that's really important and again, I think we should also encourage members to support well-run, Bible-believing Christian charities outside our congregation after they give their tithes and offerings to the church. This is what God wants as well. He wants us all to serve the church, the greater church, by ministering to other needs the church may not want to get involved with, but need to be handled and used to see the gospel go forward in our communities and in the United States and the world. So again, that's where a lot of Christians can get involved with and be a blessing to others and blessing to themselves by serving the Lord this way.

Tim Hopper: 28:57

Let's move on to our last scenario. Kristen, a member of your church, was recently sharing with you that she has been denied tuition assistance for her final semester of community college, where she is an art major. She is estranged from her parents and supports herself with a part-time job as a drugstore cashier. Kristen doesn't have the money to cover tuition and asks that the deacons could help her just this once. What should we do?

Bob Keys: 29:18

I believe that your primary job in this particular scenario is to help Kirsten with her life planning. Getting a degree from a community college is a long way from getting her prepared and into a career job time job in an area out in art or graphic arts or blog design or all kinds of different things she could do with art, which is a wonderful area, or even apprenticeship, where she can put into practice what she's already learned and test to see if this area is really her passion or not. Take six or 12 months off, pay your debts off and get experience in the area of your interest. I mean, there's all kinds of options. Again, what you're going to be doing is just encouraging her to think. Another option is to reduce her credit hours at the college and get a full-time job in the area of her interest maybe not cashier, but an area of her interest and finish in a year or 18 months, rather than in the next three to six months.

Bob Keys: 30:15

Again, delaying this stuff isn't bad. It might be really, really good for her. And rather than asking for money, simply give her wisdom, at least initially, of what options she might have other than asking for money. And again, the number one thing I would do is pray with her again. What a blessing to be able to pray with this young woman starting her life, getting education and jobs, and pray that God would provide for her needs in these tangible ways of delaying and doing the right things. So those are some things I would think about doing. And get other people involved. There's probably other people that are really able and capable of life planning wisdom, and so don't be the only one there. Get another woman or another person qualified in the area to talk with her and to encourage her and to walk side by side with her down this path and help her to find a job. Help her to find the right job that really could be encouragement to her and really a platform for her long-term employment.

Lynne Hunter: 31:09

I would agree with Bob Paying tuition. Although it's a nice, it's not a must and there are other ways that this could be accomplished. This is also a place where you probably could reach out into your congregation and find other educators that could help counsel this young lady. Maybe it is taking a whole year off, maybe it is just cutting down the number of credit hours so that you can afford this semester and stretching the time out a little bit.

Lynne Hunter: 31:38

I really like Bob's suggestion of hey, find a job in the area you're working with and try it out, take an internship for a year. So yeah, it's not the answer she's going to want to hear, but it's probably the answer she's going to need to hear. But there's one other thing it also gives you the time and the ability to work with her, not just once. You can start building a continuing relationship and finding out why she's estranged from her parents, finding out what else can we help with, where else can we help, and maybe it's a matter of getting her involved in the church so that she can see a bigger picture than just her life at this point in time.

Bob Keys: 32:20

Lynn, I really appreciate your point about her family. That's the biggest concern I had. It wasn't about her job and all this stuff, it was about her family. Now again, there are reasons why she may be estranged. There may be reasons I can mention 10 different reasons why she may be estranged and it may not ever be a possibility that she ever develops a relationship with them. But if at all possible, this young woman needs to be able to rebind this relationship with her family, if at all possible. For me, that's even more important than anything else. This hurts to hear. Is there someone in the church, another woman that can help her do this? Can someone come from the other side and bring the family back to her? I don't know, I mean, but this is the thing that concerns me the most of all. This situation is her estrangement with her family, which is the most important thing for her, I believe, right now.

Tim Hopper: 33:06

I'm going to offer a little bit of a different perspective based on two details here. And I think y'all are absolutely right that this is a great opportunity to be jumping in and trying to help this young woman and just thinking about her life and career and things. But I think two aspects of this one is this is community college and two is that, this being her last semester, I just looked up here in North Carolina a semester of community colleges for in-state is between a thousand and $2,000. So we're talking about a relatively small amount of money and that small amount of money is getting her yes to an art degree from community college, which maybe isn't the most valuable thing in life, but it's going to put her in a position where for the rest of her life she can say I have an associate's degree versus I only have a high school degree, which for better or worse, it is going to be meaningful in employers and it's going to be meaningful in her own life in saying, oh, I completed and accomplished something. So you know, I think if this was saying, oh, I didn't get assistance for the first semester of community college and an art degree, I would be having a whole different conversation versus. I've already been working on this, I've been supporting myself through this. I'm clearly committed to this, and can we just get her over the final hump here, along with all of what you're describing, and let's talk about how we can help you in your life and be thinking towards how you can provide for yourself, maybe get into the family issues and all these other things?

Tim Hopper: 34:29

But I would say that's a relatively small amount of money for a pretty big benefit for her now and potentially, you know, for the rest of your life. You can say I have a college degree, you know it's community college degree, it's an art degree, but employers care, it's a college degree. So I would be pretty willing to help or say maybe do a match, can you put in 500 or we'll put in a thousand, something like that. So she has skin in the game. But especially if she's been committed to doing this over the last two years or four years or whatever it is, if she's actually been really committed to it, taking a break could be a big interruption. That'd be hard to get back on the train. So, yeah, I would love to see her get that diploma, but again with all the other caveats that y'all have offered.

Bob Keys: 35:14

I appreciate that, tim. I think our young people are our greatest asset in our churches, and any kind of discouragement can be huge, and so I agree, I think, one thing her granddaughter is a wonderful artist. She's professional at 16. And my goal is to get her, when she comes next month to our house, to get her with some graphic artists that have a career doing art and let her just enjoy their friendship and what they do and how they do it, because she doesn't understand the gifts that God's given her and how she can really use them for him. So again, that's one goal I have is make sure a couple graphic artists, a guy and a gal younger, do it for a living, get her involved in their lives and let them encourage and bless and help her understand what gifts God's given her and to use them wisely for a praise kingdom.

Lynne Hunter: 36:05

By the way, tim college in the near states a whole lot cheaper than Michigan. Oh yeah yeah. Average community college in Michigan 5,000. For in-state In-state oh interesting. 6,900 for out-of-state for one semester.

Tim Hopper: 36:20

Yeah, well, you know, I think you'd want to look at the cost and try to really understand what that is concretely and is that within the realm of possibility? But yeah, I think my biggest thing is trying to keep that momentum going and getting over the finish line.

Lynne Hunter: 36:31

Oh yeah, I definitely agree with your momentum idea. That does resonate with me. And how can we encourage her to move forward?

Bob Keys: 36:38

I would say one other thing. If she can get with the right company, they probably would pay for it. She finds the right opportunity, even within your church. With the right company, she can maybe get exactly what she wants and get paid for it. There's all kinds of opportunities and again it's looking at everything, looking at all the opportunities, talking to people that are out there. Again, I can't emphasize this enough in Diakono Ministries, praying with her, what a powerful tool that is for the cause of Christ, for the deacon, I keep emphasizing that it is such an important part of what we do to know that God is the one that supplies all of our needs and praying that prayer for her and knowing that the church and his people care is so important and so valuable.

Tim Hopper: 37:24

Very good. I think that's a great place to wrap up. Thank you again for your time.

Bob Keys: 37:27

Thank you, Tim. Always good to see you, brother Lynn, what a blessing you are. Thank you.

David Nakhla: 37:31

See you folks. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website thereformedeaconorg. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.