Rob Guss: 0:00

The church can really come alongside these people and encourage them of the hope that they really have, not only of the hope that's to come, but the hope in the here and now, and that there is true freedom and true forgiveness in Christ.

David Nakhla: 0:15

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Nakhla. I serve as the administrator for the OPC's Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Today we're going to focus on the topic ministering to those struggling with addiction. This is a topic that's relevant to deacons because addiction brings with it so much brokenness. Not only can addictions consume much of a family's resources, but addictions, when discovered, can result in someone being fired from their job. This can add pressure on a household that's already in distress. It can result in broken relationships, bringing hurt and pain and sadness and confusion to not only the one struggling with addiction but also to those close to him or her, especially their family, and this may often result in many diacral needs for deacons to work through. So I'm thankful to be able to welcome two men onto the podcast who come to us with very different experiences on this topic. First, it's our privilege to have Dr Jim Berry. Dr Berry is an elder at Reformation OPC in Morgantown, west Virginia. He's also a professor of psychiatry and the chair of the Department of Behavioral Medicine and Psychiatry at West Virginia University's Rockefeller Neuroscience Institute. I first met Dr Berry at the OPC General Assembly a number of years ago. I very much appreciated the counsel and advice he gave to me when at that time I was ministering to a friend who was struggling with an addiction to alcohol. So I look forward to hearing his thoughts on this topic. And secondly, I'm thankful that Rob Guss is able to join the conversation. Rob is one of our newly minted elders at my home church, calvary OPC in Glenside, pennsylvania, where he and I together serve as part of Calvary's session. Rob and his wife are expecting their fourth child in August. They've been married nine years. After a number of years, as a software engineer, rob sends the call to ministry and enrolled at Westminster Theological Seminary, where he also works in their IT department. While serving together on the session, I soon found Rob's insight to be super helpful, especially in recent occasions when we've been ministering to various members struggling with addiction and Rob was able to provide insight because he knows that struggle firsthand. I won't steal his thunder, rather I'll let him tell his own story in his own words. So welcome brothers, thanks for having us. Pleasure to be here.

David Nakhla: 2:55

Dr Berry, let's start with you, if you don't mind. You wrote an article back in 2018 that was published in the Ordained Servant, one of the OPC's magazines. In that article, you described addiction in America as quote a crisis unlike anything we've seen before, with overdose deaths outpacing car accidents and even the peak of the AIDS epidemic and that article was seven years ago. I'm sure it's only gotten worse since then. You also point out that our nation's declining life expectancy is largely driven by preventable addiction-related causes such as overdose, suicide and liver failure. This epidemic is happening all around us in the church. So, dr Barrett, you serve as an elder in the church. How could or should the church be engaging this staggering brokenness in our culture?

Jim Berry: 3:47

Yeah, I firmly believe that we in the church have a unique opportunity to enter the lives of those neighbors that God has, in his providence, placed us among that. We have that opportunity to enter their lives and be able to demonstrate the love of Christ and to call them to see themselves as sinners in need of salvation and in need of all that Christ has accomplished for them. And the older I get and the more that I am in the church and the longer I'm in a Reformed faith, I've come to really rest in our doctrine of adoption and recognizing that really our foundational identity of who we are as children of God, hidden in Christ. It makes all the difference in the world. And I am really interested in helping churches be equipped and see that as part of their mission is to really enter the brokenness of the folks that live in their communities and bring them to the riches that Christ has to offer.

David Nakhla: 5:02

Thank you, Rob. Would you be willing to share your story and how the Lord brought you to faith? If there were specific people the Lord used and, if so, how he used them, even in your battle with addiction?

Rob Guss: 5:17

Sure. So I grew up in South Florida in a, I would say, a nominal Roman Catholic family. My parents divorced when I was eight years old and my father left when I was 10. My sister was 12. He moved up to Massachusetts to live with another woman, so that was the same age that I became an atheist. I struggled with hearing the whole idea of our. Basically the phrase or the saying that you know your father in heaven was really repulsive to me because I equated the two and I thought that if there was a God up there and this is the kind of life that he was allowing to happen or causing to happen, however, that worked. I mean, I'm only 10 at this point. I don't really know how to process a lot of this. I figured I'd be better off without him.

Rob Guss: 6:03

Hindsight, the worst decision I ever made started doing drugs when I was 13. That only really escalated as time went on and then started selling drugs to support my habit, and then I got radically saved when I was 20. That's kind of a whole other story unto itself, but essentially it wasn't looking for God, I just got blindsided. One day. He just made it overwhelmingly clear that he existed and that he loved me and that he had a plan for my life. And I also felt, for the first time, convicted of my own sin. And my life turned around like almost immediately. The very next day, I stopped using drugs completely no rehab, no desire to use drugs, no withdrawal symptoms. And that was 20 years ago.

Rob Guss: 6:48

So it's been a heck of a journey ever since. So yeah, I don't understand it myself. So if you want me to explain how that all works, I have no idea, but only by the grace of God.

David Nakhla: 6:57

So can you share a little bit more about how you came to Christ when you were 20?

Rob Guss: 7:02

Yeah, I would say I had somewhat of a psychotic breakdown of some kind to where I became indifferent for about two to three weeks, and by that I mean I felt no emotions whatsoever pain, sorrow, joy. It absolutely terrified me. So I realized this is probably due to the fact that I was doing a lot of drugs and so the only thing I could think of was to try and go to like a 12-step program. So I started going to meetings and those were very eye-opening, I guess, because you hear some real horror stories and in light of the things that I was doing and seeing where I thought I was eventually going to end up was really terrifying. The one moment that stuck out for me was so everyone in AA meetings if you don't know this, we all well, at least I did you drink a lot of coffee and you smoke a lot of cigarettes. Like, you're always going on coffee breaks and smoking a lot of cigarettes. And so during one of those breaks this guy came up to me and I was 19 at the time and I probably looked like I was 13 or 14. I looked pretty young and he goes hey, kid, how old are you? And I told him I was 19. And he goes I've been putting needles in my arm longer than you've been alive and that was the real like time kind of stood still and I just really had to reevaluate my life.

Rob Guss: 8:22

And then, a little time after that, basically I started to read their book, and one of their steps which is a real problem for an atheist like me and, by the way, like I, was a very hostile atheist too. I hated the church, I hated Christ, I hated his people Like it made me angry. And one of the steps is they tell you that you have to find a higher power because you don't have anything within you to like overcome this thing. And so they have this chapter for agnostics. And as I'm turning the page to read this chapter, which I like was really not looking forward to, I just felt this need to go to church.

Rob Guss: 9:01

I don't really know how to describe it, but it just kept getting stronger and stronger and it wouldn't go away. I hadn't been in church in a very, very long time. I just basically got in my car and drove to the closest church. That was not a Roman Catholic church. I showed up. It's like 1.30-ish on a Sunday afternoon and even I was thinking this is insane. Like even I know, people don't have church at 1.30 on a Sunday afternoon.

Rob Guss: 9:26

So this is like what are you doing here? But there were a handful of cars and there was these two really young girls standing out front and they're handing out these flyers. I've been a musician for a long time so I was really into music at that time. And the flyer basically said that they were having a piano recital. So I'm like this is great, I can listen to this piano recital. I don't have to listen to some preacher tell me about Jesus or sin or anything.

Rob Guss: 9:51

And something happened in that church that I can't really put into words. But I experienced something there that I don't know how to describe. And the kids there were. They are so little that their little feet are like hanging off the bench. They can't even touch the pedals. They're playing some of the most beautiful music I'd ever heard. So long story short.

Rob Guss: 10:13

As soon as that got done, I bolted out of that place because I got really freaked out. And then I'm leaving the church and I see out of the corner of my eye like this flock of all these white birds that I'd never seen before. And the words thank you God just came out of my mouth and I just I just broke down and cried and I just lost it. And the weird thing was is that I knew exactly who it was too. It wasn't just some like generic deity or any kind like. I knew this was Jesus Christ, and I don't know how I knew that, but that really freaked me out.

Rob Guss: 10:48

So that night, yeah, I gave my life to him. I don't, I didn't even know what to tell him, I didn't even know what to say, but I felt very convicted of my sin. I thought he was going to kill me. Honestly, I thought I was going to die because of all the terrible things I'd done. And I just told him I'm a drug addict, I'm selling drugs. I don't know what you want with me, but I told him. I told him I think you have the wrong guy Wow, which, in hindsight, is borderline blasphemous. But yeah, I just told him if you want me, you can have me. And so then the next day, totally different person Wow. All the glory goes to God.

David Nakhla: 11:23

Thanks. What an amazing story. Thanks for sharing that, rob. So before we dive into how to help those struggling with addiction, can we begin by helping deacons understand first how to recognize some of the signs that someone has an addiction? Are there physical things to look for or behavioral? I was just talking with another elder at General Assembly and he was talking about a man who wandered into the back of church and he interacted with the guy and the conversation was very strange. So I think that could happen in any of our churches, right, somebody wanders in the back door or maybe somebody comes asking for help. So how do we recognize that someone is high or under the influence of something? And once we suspect that, are there do's and don'ts that you would advise a deacon any steps to take that type of thing?

Jim Berry: 12:19

Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that. You know addiction exists on a continuum. Yes, right, so there will or may certainly be people and circumstances that are at your front door. Somebody comes into the sanctuary who is obviously impaired and obviously intoxicated and I think you know most people would be able to recognize wow, there's something wrong with this person. Don't know what it is exactly, but it seems like there is something amiss. And they might have alcohol in their breath, they might smell of, you know, cannabis or something else, and then you're like okay, I think I know what's happening here. You know, in that case it can be a futile experience trying to, you know, reason with somebody who is intoxicated.

Jim Berry: 13:03

And so I think at that point, when you're encountering and you're in that same space with somebody, just making sure they're safe and making sure that folks around them are safe too, but that's not the time to start getting into the deep theological questions about who they are, what they're doing and all of that stuff.

Jim Berry: 13:21

But it's really just hey, what can I do to make sure this person's safe and maybe and start a relationship, stuff, right, but it's really just hey, what can I do to make sure this person's safe and maybe start a relationship?

Jim Berry: 13:27

But I would say that what is more common in our churches is what's hidden as far as addiction is concerned. Right, and too often our churches are like our social media posts, where we like to put on there, you know, sort of our facade and what we want to project as our lives and that we're all together or we have things all together and we live these perfect lives. But in reality, right, there's a lot of brokenness underneath that, and usually church is going to be the last place that it shows up that somebody is really struggling with an addiction problem. And you know signs over time especially their spouses or their children, or maybe even their parents, are going to their homes and take them out to lunch and dinner as deacons and have coffee or whatever it is, just to get to know them, and then you'll start realizing what's underneath the surface.

David Nakhla: 14:36

Really good. Anything you want to add to that, Rob.

Rob Guss: 14:38

Yeah, I would just say similar to what Dr Berry was talking about. I think a lot of people have this false impression that when you hear the word addiction, they immediately think of like, the absolute extreme, basically without realizing that you know there's this like idea of like and I was one of them like a functional drug addict. I mean, I kept a full-time job. None of the people I worked with had any clue I was doing drugs in the bathroom. They had no idea.

Rob Guss: 15:11

I think the other issue that can make it really hard to find or to detect in people is, I think addicts, serious addicts, are professional liars really and they're very, very good at manipulating people. Situations Like, for example, I always dressed appropriately. I was still yes, ma'am, no, ma'am, thank you, please, and thank you Like. You would have had no idea the stuff that I was doing. My parents had no idea, none of my siblings did Some of them even my friends had no idea. Idea, none of my siblings did Some of them, even my friends had no idea. So it can be really difficult to detect if you want to kind of stay hidden, and I think that's something important to keep in mind too, is that we tend to be I shouldn't say we, because I'm not an addict anymore, I've been clean for 20 years but you can manipulate people a lot and you get very, very good at putting that mask on and making it seem like everything's okay.

Rob Guss: 16:11

Coming across people who are like high in the moment is probably going to be less often than the people who are just using on a regular basis. Another thing, too, I think you're going to come across, which is probably the most difficult hurdle, is you'll come across people who probably don't even recognize or realize that they themselves are addicts. You know, they just think that, oh, it's totally normal for me to drink x amount every day, like this, just, it just becomes a way of life, you know, and so they might not even recognize or realize that they have a real problem. You know, this is just like this is just what I do, you know, and so they might not even recognize or realize that they have a real problem. You know, this is just like this is just what I do. You know, it's like brushing your teeth you get dressed every morning, take a shower. Whatever Using becomes like every day, it just becomes a part of you. So that could be another thing I think you come across quite a bit.

David Nakhla: 17:04

Dr Bear, can you talk about what? Is that tipping point when something is defined as an addiction?

Jim Berry: 17:10

Yeah, I mean you can look at the clinical definition of that and that's basically that. Have you been using to such a degree that it's caused clinically significant problems that you are no longer able to control? And I like what Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous how they put it is that your life has become unmanageable. So you've been captured by this substance, has created a life for you that has really become unmanageable and taking you in directions that you just don't want to go, and you realize that you've been become powerless over it and you really can't change Right. And so that starts getting in to the far end, the deep end of the spectrum.

Jim Berry: 17:56

However, you can also look at it as more on the shallow end of the spectrum, where somebody is drinking, for instance, in a way that is unhealthy, where they, you know, maybe are driving intoxicated or maybe they've drank to such a degree that they have trouble getting up for work the next day, and this is happening on occasion, that's more, you know, more and more frequent they're not showing up for their kids soccer game because they're going out to the bar. I mean, these are things right? Are you giving up activities that are really important to you and the people around you, and as those become more and more prevalent and start piling on, then it becomes deeper and deeper there in the pool of the continuum.

David Nakhla: 18:38

That's helpful, thank you. So, dr Berry, can you talk to us about what the Bible says about this topic and maybe even how that framework or that understanding helps shape your teaching on the subject in your practice?

Jim Berry: 18:51

Yeah, I think you know foundationally, you know we understand according to Scripture, that we live very, very messy lives and that we live in a very broken world. Right, this is not the way we were created to live right, In full fellowship with, first and foremost, God and then in full fellowship with our fellow humans, but because of original sin and our fallenness that we are now broken and we live in a broken world and we are waiting our full redemption and glory. So I mean, foundationally, our hearts are deceptive, Our hearts cling to things that are against God. And you know, one of the things that I've always appreciated about, even early on, and what attracted me in medical school to working with folks who had addiction, was to me I saw boy sin incarnate in my own sin incarnate and could recognize wow, in these lives they've been captured in such a way of their hearts, their desires, that they hate doing what they're doing, but still they keep doing it because they just feel like they have to do this in order to live. And to me that was just very profound early on and I could see myself in that. I could see areas where I fall short of you know what I knew to be right and what I knew to be true, and so I wanted to learn more about that and see how people got better as well.

Jim Berry: 20:22

You know, addiction is one manifestation of our fallenness, but for those of us who don't meet the diagnoses necessarily or are that extreme, all of us give ourselves over to things that we know we shouldn't be doing, and thank God.

Jim Berry: 20:36

Then we have Christ, who bore all of our brokenness, all of our sinfulness, and has redeemed our body and our soul, and so now our flesh in Him is before the Father. When the Father sees the Son, he's seeing us, and that gives all of us, and should give us all, hope, no matter what we've been through, no matter what we've done, that Christ has borne it all for us on the cross, and not only that, but then equips us, through His Spirit and the gifts that we've been given through the church, to live lives that are comforting lives and to live lives in glory, even knowing that as we groan and as we wait for our full redemption here, we can be comforted, and we can comfort one another and always live in that hope that there will be a day where all of our addictions and all of our trials will be put to rest and we'll live in full glory and joy and peace.

David Nakhla: 21:32

Rob, do you have any thoughts as to whether there's a role that the church can play in an addict's transformation?

Rob Guss: 21:41

Yeah, well, I would say, first and foremost, the solution that they really need is the gospel, and that's the only thing that will actually bring them true freedom and deliverance, because, at the end of the day, this is a sin issue. You know, one of the things that I struggled with when I was going to those meetings and I think there's a lot of good that can be gleaned from an AA and all these other is you always introduce yourself. You say hi, I'm Bob, I'm an addict, and even if you've been clean for like 20, 30 years, they just tell you that you're going to be. This is a disease, you're going to be addicted to this thing, and I didn't like that. I was like I don't want to be addicted to AA meetings or NA meetings for the rest of my life, like I don't want to choose, swap one addiction for another. I want to be done with this nonsense, and I think only in the gospel do you have that, and I think we need to encourage our brothers and sisters who are struggling is that the gospel is not just a pardoning of your sins, but there's power to it to where you can truly be set free and delivered from it, and addiction is one of those things that it can get really dark really quick and you can kind of adopt this mindset of I'm just going to be this way for the rest of my life, I'm just going to have to deal with this thing forever, until I'm dead, basically. But the church can really come alongside these people and encourage them of the hope that they really have, not only of the hope that's to come, but the hope in the here and now, and that there is true freedom and true forgiveness in Christ. We should also be encouraging them that you can adopt this real sense of self-hatred when you struggle with this disease, sense of self-hatred when you struggle with this disease.

Rob Guss: 23:29

It reminded me when he was talking. We just heard a sermon on this, romans 7, where Paul says I don't do the things I know I'm supposed to do. I do the things I know I'm not, and he says who can deliver me from this body of death? Like that is literally the tagline of every drug addict I've ever met, when you come to realize that I hate this thing so much but you just feel like there's no escape.

Rob Guss: 23:53

It's like ideal texts that take them to. Here's an apostle, here's a man who's given revelation from Jesus himself, who's struggling with things, and so, granted, he probably wasn't struggling with drug addiction, but at the end of the day, you can sympathize with him that if someone like the Apostle Paul is saying words, by the way, that are inspired by the Holy Spirit and written down in Scripture, how much more can we be encouraged by those things as well? I would say the church has the only true source of encouragement for people who are struggling with this, because, at the end of the day, it's a heart issue, it's a sin issue, and only the gospel has the solution for sin issues.

Jim Berry: 24:38

Yeah, I would say a couple of things in response to that too. One is yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe Paul did suffer from addiction. What I think is so cool about the text is, right, it says, you know, we don't know what the thorn in his flesh was. Right, we have some suspicions. But what I think is so wonderful and beautiful about it is that, you know, we could see our own thorns in our flesh and maybe maybe Paul suffered from that. I don't know, but we know he suffered from something. It was a fleshy thing, obviously, from that I don't know, but we know he suffered from something. It was a fleshy thing, obviously.

Jim Berry: 25:10

One of the other nuances I would say about, you know, I love Rob's experience and what he was able to just enjoy, the healing that he had. But also, you know, I think it's so important what he talked about as far as the guilt and the shame that people experience when they are going through this. And you know, I think culturally we put a particular emphasis on addiction as more shameful, you know, than some other things where I'm not sure the Bible would right. We tend to minimize our own sins, right, and then completely stigmatize others and it just seems like addiction is one of those things where our culture and even our churches would put that in a different category of sin.

Jim Berry: 25:49

And I would also say that there will be people, and a lot of people that I work with to this day who are faithful Christians, who continue to wake up every day and still think about using and struggle with the fact that something is in their brain and their bodies, maybe their heart, that still wants to use.

Jim Berry: 26:11

And so I don't want anybody to get the impression coming away right from our conversation that if that wasn't removed from them, that somehow they're less Christian or they should be feeling guilty about that and all of that stuff right, or they should be feeling guilty about that and all of that stuff, right. But to recognize that there are a whole bunch of people who still just struggle every day, and some every moment, with the cravings and the feelings and all of this stuff. But they are still very much as saved as I am and they're still very much a child of God as anyone else who calls upon the name of Christ, and they have to trust that God is still working in them and that God still loves them and there will be a day when that will all go away. But it might not be the side of glory or a church member.

David Nakhla: 27:11

Interacting with someone struggling with addiction might be uncomfortable or even find it intimidating to face. Some may think I don't want my kids exposed to this or worry that it's risky to be involved in ministry to somebody who is struggling. You know worry that it's risky to be involved in ministry to somebody who is struggling. Do you have any words of caution or are there misconceptions that deacons might have on the topic and then maybe any advice to overcome such fears and enable us to engage practically and wisely in helping?

Jim Berry: 27:44

I think first and foremost is encourage deacons to follow the pattern of Christ. And Christ went to the broken, went to the outcasts of society and opened himself up to them and entered their suffering and was vulnerable before them. And so I think, as I read scripture and see who Christ was and is that's what he's calling us to do, it's certainly safe to stay away from anything we don't understand, and certainly our natural tendencies is to avoid suffering and, for those who are ashamed, to avoid them as well. And I would encourage our deacons and members and children to say, hey, you know we need to follow Christ and try to minister to people. That's why you know we're here. But also, you know, be wise in how you do that.

Jim Berry: 28:40

And just because somebody has an addiction doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to act immorally or, you know, somehow put you or your children in danger. Right, you got to be wise. And so if you know that somebody has, is really struggling with addiction, who isn't in recovery, that you know thinking about even driving with them or letting your kids drive with them, that's one practical thing that should come to mind, right. And if somebody is getting high, you don't want, you don't want to put anybody else at risk for that. For instance, you know, like like Rob said, dishonesty can be really part of the problems that people start utilizing to be able to live their lives, the problems that people start utilizing to be able to live their lives, and so you know being wary about loaning money and other things that can put the people at risk. That's great.

Rob Guss: 29:34

Yeah, I guess one thing I would say for deacons people struggling with addiction you probably have to be more proactive than you're probably used to, in the sense that addicts don't typically, like I mentioned earlier, there can be a lot of self-hatred and shame and all of these things, so you're not exactly going to be very forthcoming with this and seeking forgiveness.

Rob Guss: 29:58

Well, they say, you know, the first step is admitting you have a problem. That's a really, really hard step to overcome. It's the reason why it's the first one. Just getting there is tricky.

Rob Guss: 30:09

So I think, similar to what Dr Berry said earlier, just being in the lives of your people and especially talking to the people around the person who you may suspect, they'll probably have a better idea. But it's also one of those things where these are really lost sheep and they're going to stray a lot and it's going to require, I would say, a more hands-on, a proactive approach, whereas maybe other sins that people are struggling with they'll be more forthcoming and getting help and assistance with. I would be reluctant to see addicts who are really going to be, unless they've hidden rock bottom and that's that would be great and then they've woken up saying I just need help. But the whole process leading up to that point. So just being aware of your people and the only way to know that is just to be in their lives, you know. And then the lives of the people who are in their lives.

Jim Berry: 31:03

Yeah, rob, I couldn't agree more really put his finger on it on. An important part of this is that the folks who are struggling with addiction, shame is compounding upon shame and they're unlike, maybe, other people in the church who are going to reach out to the deacons for help because they need assistance for some reason. Right, these people are going to be running away and they are not going to want this to come to light at all unless they've really really gotten to that point where they, like Rob said, they've hit rock bottom or whatever it is, where they recognize, all right, I've got to do this, but otherwise it's all right If you start smelling that this person has a problem trying to just spend more time with them and be gentle with them and have that relationship and develop that trust and be the type of deacon who is projecting, who is living a life that seems to be open and willing to let somebody confess to and know that. Okay, I'm not going to automatically judge you, disqualify you, whatever it is right, I'm not going to shame you further, but I'm going to be there and listen to you and I'm going to be there as a sinner talking to a sinner.

Jim Berry: 32:15

That, I think, is so, so important is not putting yourself or again giving the impression that somehow you're above this person. But yeah, wow, you're dealing with this and, like Rob said, it's so hard. The three hardest words to say is I need help. And once they say that is boy, there's the window of opportunity to do what you can and say you know, boy, it must have been really hard for you to finally come to admit that. I know how hard that can be and I'm going to be there for you. I'm going to love you unconditionally and let's try to help you with this.

David Nakhla: 32:46

So can you to follow up on that? Then what does that? When they say I need help, what does that help look like?

Jim Berry: 32:53

First and foremost I would say is being with that person and saying I'm going to be with you. Thank God, you came to me. God did not create us to be solitary creatures, but he created us to be in relationship with one another. That is the beauty of the church, and I'm going to be with you, I'm going to do what I can to help you and I'm going to be with you until the end. First and foremost, that's what people need to hear and say listen, there's nothing you can tell me. That's going to make me think less of you as a human being, and you know I struggle with things, you struggle with things.

Jim Berry: 33:29

Let's try to go forward, then, in having a conversation as far as what is it that you actually need and who can we bring alongside us to get you even more help?

Jim Berry: 33:41

And trying to find out. You know, ask as many questions and be as curious as you can and to learn their story so you know how to best help them. Yeah, I think one of the things and maybe Rob will disagree or agree, but sometimes, you know, coming in with all the answers can not be a good way to approach this, because it's like, unless you're like Rob, who've actually lived the life of somebody with addiction. You just don't. You really don't know what it is. And if you come at it like you think you do, because you've read some books or heard some things or you just have your own opinions, I mean people are just going to lose trust in you immediately or quickly and and then it can create more of a barrier for them to open up more. So I guess humility, curiosity and humility, I think, are key aspects of what to develop as we approach those who are suffering.

David Nakhla: 34:33

Where does that hit the point of enabling?

Jim Berry: 34:36

So you know it depends what you mean by enabling. You know, if you continue to give somebody money, for instance, so they can go out and buy a bag of heroin, you know that would be enabling. We all need to be very careful about that because that is not going to help somebody but could actually put them at risk and actually kill them. So you have to be careful about that. But I would never, ever, ever, say that being with somebody, opening up your life, being available to them, is ever enabling, and that is, again, I think that's what we're called to do. And even when they continue and they will, because that's part of the process of addiction even when they continue to fail, when they continue to mess up, it's all right. What can we learn from these mistakes? And what do you do to get to go forward? Right, so you can still be available for somebody and be there, but not enable them to continue the behavior that they have. It's going to be harmful for them.

Jim Berry: 35:40

But at the same time, guys, right, it doesn't mean that you don't put in particular guardrails and limits, because we all have our own limits too. It doesn't mean that you can call me at three in the morning, every night, when you're drunk and you are not allowed to do that, right, that's, that's off limits. If you need to talk to me, right, and it's an emergency, then you know, then we can talk about that. But otherwise, you know you can set a. You know time is okay. This is when we can talk, and these sort of things too. So I don't want to give the impression that you just have to be completely 24 hours a day, seven days a week, available to somebody and that folks can take advantage of that too.

Rob Guss: 36:21

Yeah, I think one thing I would add is when someone is forthcoming or they get to the point where they admit that they need help, probably a good thing for you to just keep in mind that you're in this thing for the long haul.

Rob Guss: 36:37

Generally, I mean, I personally benefit from deacons for other reasons, but, for example, this is not like someone lost their job and they just need help paying the rent for a couple months. This is a process and the process looks different for everyone. Testimony a whole lot, because I don't want to give the impression that like I'm in the anomaly here and I don't even like telling addicts about my story because then they can easily think, well, why not me, why did it happen? So it's typically a very, very long road and, similar to what Dr Barry was saying, I think we should never underestimate Mark Bube talks about this a lot the idea of ministry, of presence, of just physically being in their life, walking with them, and you need to recognize that through this process they are going to fall a lot, like it's not just like, hey, I need help, help, and then boom, they're never going to use again, like they're gonna keep going back to that, you know, rolling around in the mire or whatever like it's, they're gonna relapse.

Rob Guss: 37:50

It just takes a tremendous amount of patience, a tremendous amount of patience, and there's really no shortcut, you know, unless the lord just radically intervenes. It's just one of those things where they could, like Dr Barry was saying, they very well could be struggling with it for the rest of their lives and thinking about it and all these other things. As fits, all solution or every addict is like its own unique case, you know. So I would also stress the importance of prayer for something like this. This is not something that any one of us is capable of handling, that we need the Lord and the Holy Spirit to give us the wisdom and the grace and the patience to do it.

Jim Berry: 38:42

Yeah, it makes me think when you were talking there, rob, is a story I heard about Johnny Cash I think it was you too, and Bono said this story.

Jim Berry: 38:49

So you may know that Johnny Cash had a lot of demons in his life, and certainly drug addiction and alcohol addiction were some of them, and he got saved and ultimately he was able to be in recovery and have a long time sober. And I think it was Bono and the guys from UT who went to visit him at his home in his later years and he prayed before their meal and talked about, you know, the delivery of Christ and the joy he has in the salvation, something of that nature. And then after the prayer, I think Bono said something like well, that was a really beautiful prayer. And Johnny Cash said yeah, I say that, but I want you to know, it's really important to know, that I still think about using every day, and to me that was just like very, very apropos and is typical for a lot of the people who are still out there, who have been saved but still struggle with this.

David Nakhla: 39:49

So our podcast Real World Cases episodes are some of our most popular and we thought maybe we could discuss a scenario having to do with addiction and have each of you give your thoughts as to how to deal with it. So here it is. Steve, a 42-year-old man who's been a member of your OPC church for about 11 years approaches you a deacon after the Sunday evening service. He's a quiet, clean-cut, reserved guy who usually sits near the back with his wife and two teenage daughters. Clean-cut, reserved guy who usually sits near the back with his wife and two teenage daughters. He works in IT, he serves occasionally as an usher and he has attended a midweek men's group off and on for years.

David Nakhla: 40:31

You've known Steve on a surface level for over a decade Polite conversations, a few prayer requests. He's friendly but never particularly sociable. After hesitating and glancing around to make sure no one else is listening, steve admits to you that he's been struggling with alcohol. What started as casual drinks after work turned into nightly binges. He believes he's hidden it from his family for years, but recently his wife confronted him. He seems scared and ashamed and admits he doesn't know what to do next. He says he believes God can change him, but he's prayed and not had relief. At one point he seems to backtrack a bit from remorse to justification, asking if you think he's making too much of it. You're the first person he's ever told. How should this deacon respond?

Jim Berry: 41:22

Yeah, I would go back to something I was saying earlier.

Jim Berry: 41:25

The first response would be to say hey, Steve, listen, I know how hard it must have been for you to even talk to me about this, so I just want you to know how grateful I am that you trusted me enough to share what you're dealing with right now.

Jim Berry: 41:43

And this must be very, very difficult for you. So that's how I would approach it and start it and then say that I believe that help is available and that I am convinced people get better all the time. Let's start meeting together and help me understand more of your story and what's been happening, and can we, you know, commit to getting together on a regular basis and talking more about this? Then I also might say is there anyone else that you trust that I could you know talk to and maybe bring in to our team here as we try to work together? If not, that's okay, it can be you and me right now, and maybe would it be possible to talk to your wife also, who's already brought up some concerns with you. I think that's how I would approach it initially. That's great.

Rob Guss: 42:39

Yeah, I don't really know if I could say anything better than that. That's pretty spot on, just to kind of echo the fact of first encouraging them, of just how much courage it takes for them to get to that point, because they've probably been thinking about that and ruminating over that for a very significant amount of time.

Rob Guss: 43:00

I think you also need to recognize the weight of the responsibility now that's on your shoulders, because they've been willing to open up to you about this and so you're dealing with a very, very fragile person, I would say, and the fact that they've opened themselves up to you specifically is that's a very weighty matter. And so you need to be real wise and real careful with what you say, what you don't say and how you kind of move forward. And then, similar to what Dr Barry said, you need to be more involved in their lives, frequent kind of meetings, trying to understand what's going on. And then I would also say at some point, the sooner the better if you can get other people involved. This is not like a lone wolf situation where it's like, oh, he came to me, so I can bear this, and it's like we can get the pastors involved. Definitely want to get the wife involved, you want to be having conversations with her, and then just remember you're in this thing for the long haul. It's going to probably take a while and then, as things progress, you can have conversations about treatment programs or what that looks like, but again, I think it's just a presence thing.

Rob Guss: 44:15

Just now, whether you want it or not, the Lord has put this person in your life and you've been tagged, you're it. And so now you, especially as a deacon, put this person in your life and you've been tagged, you're it. And so now you, especially as a deacon, as a you know, a minister in God's house, you have this immense responsibility and weight upon your shoulders to walk alongside this brother, and it's a privilege. Honestly, you shouldn't feel like a burden, like, oh man, why did he pick me, why? No, that's a gift. You know, there's something that that man saw in you and the Lord's been preparing you, and the Lord ordained this thing to happen.

Rob Guss: 44:49

That's what you need to remember too. It's not like the addict just went eeny, meeny, miny moe, and even if he did, it's still providential at the end of the day. So it is a gift and it's not going to be easy, I would say, but you will get, lord willing, a front row seat of the gospel and the grace of God at work in someone's life. You will just see it manifest time and time and time again, and it should be a source of encouragement to you because, hopefully you'll remember, this is why I serve in the church. This is why I serve as a deacon is because I get to be the hands and feet of Christ and I'm literally seeing my Lord use my broken hands and my feet of clay to minister to this person and I'm watching sanctification happen right before my eyes, like it's pretty wild.

Rob Guss: 45:37

It's pretty amazing and you get to see that it's incredible.

Jim Berry: 45:42

Yeah, one of the things that attracted me, even as a medical student, to working with this population is I saw people get better in ways I didn't see in other areas of medicine, and a lot of times there's sort of this myth or stigma out there that you know, addiction is just people are always going to be at the bottom of the barrel, but that's just not. The reality is that I got to see that early on in my medical career is that actually no people got better all the time and not only got their lives better and got healthier, but transformed, and dramatically, and they became better husbands, better wives, better employees, employers, citizens and all of that stuff. One other thing that comes to mind in that first experience is, too, it's okay to say I don't know right and that I don't have all the answers. Boy, this is a lot, steve, you're dealing with a lot. I wish I knew all of the answers. I wish I knew you know what to do to help, but I'm not going to tell you that I do because I don't.

Jim Berry: 46:38

This is uncharted territory for me and I think people will really respond to that a lot better than trying to pretend that you know what you're doing or have all the answers and just say let's try to find these answers together. Another thing that comes to mind is if you can already have like Rob is a great example if you can already have some people picked out in your church with lived experience from addiction to be able to bring on as part of the team and connect with too, is they're going to be able to meet with them in a way that you just don't, because of what they're, what you, what they've gone to, so they're going to be able to relate to things and think about how those thought patterns they used to be in and what's going to be harmful. And then a third thing that probably comes to mind is making sure that you've familiarized yourself with whatever professional services you have in your community and so that you can have that at the ready when you need that and when the time comes to.

Rob Guss: 47:35

You made me think of something else, dr Barry is I would say especially initially, as those early conversations are being had is I think it would be very wise and do a lot of good for you to do more listening than talking. Yes, yes, you also need to be careful with like hammering them down with the law. Don't get me wrong. It's a sin issue that needs to be addressed. But I can almost guarantee they're well aware of the depth of depravity and sin that they're in and they don't need to be reminded and come off in some self-righteous way, especially if it's happening in a church. They're coming to a deacon, they know. So that time needs to come.

Rob Guss: 48:23

But initially, I think you really need to exercise tremendous humility and just let them do as much of the talking and you just be a person present and listen to them, not only because you have no idea what they're going through and you definitely don't have all the right answers, but they just need someone to listen to them. Because the one thing about addiction from my own experience, I mean all sin is selfish, but addiction is very you go real deep inside. So you're not talking about a lot of stuff, you're suppressing, you're constantly hiding stuff pushing it down, and that stuff needs to come out over time, because that's the stuff that causes you to do the drugs in the first place. So, yeah, doing a lot more listening, I would say, even if you feel like you're not actually doing anything and you're just literally sitting there and just listening, you're doing a lot more than you could probably ever imagine. You know, you don't have to be giving all of this like wise, profound advice, but just sitting there and let them just say whatever they want to say.

Jim Berry: 49:32

And I could not agree more. You know, we know right, that there's a spiritual healing and benefit that takes place in those relationships and those interactions and that time and that space. But also even I can tell you that, through like neuroimaging and other research that has been done in the brain field, that brain changes occur over time. When just that is happening and repairs occur and and strengthens certain neural networks that make it more likely for people to get healthy too. So there's real power in this.

David Nakhla: 50:09

Do you have thoughts at all, dr Berry, as I put on your elder hat, yeah, at what point do you think the deacon should involve the elders, and what should that look like? Involve the elders, and what should that look like.

Jim Berry: 50:20

Yeah, I mean, I think, as soon as you possibly can.

Jim Berry: 50:29

But you don't want to do in a way that the person isn't necessarily ready for to where they're going, to just kind of close down or run away.

Jim Berry: 50:32

They may come to that and they may not be ready for it, and if they start engaging in things that are very dangerous to themselves or to their children or to their wife, you may have to get a hold of an elder and say, all right, now we have to come in and we have to be more of the all right, we got to set some ground rules and we got to keep people safe. There may be circumstances like that, but if it hasn't risen to that level of just more dangerousness or you know deep, deep, deep sin stuff happening, then I would just say, just wait and let it organically sort of come together and the more that Steve develops trust with the deacon, the more the deacon can say you know what? I just think we're at a point right now where we should bring in an elder. And can we do that now and make it a conversation and dialogue as much as you possibly can and make it a cooperative thing?

David Nakhla: 51:36

Good, Good, that's very helpful. Well, thank you, jim and Rob, for joining me on this episode. This has been so helpful. I'm sure that deacons will find it very informative and beneficial to them in their service. So thank you, brothers.

Jim Berry: 51:53

Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. This is something that I feel very privileged to be able to talk to others about, and it was such a delight to hear Rob's story Again, another reminder of the power of Christ and the love of the church and what God has given us.

David Nakhla: 52:08

So, deacons, we hope this episode is helpful to you and will be an encouragement to you in your labors for the Lord, and I'd like to thank Trish Dugan, our producer, for her excellent work in putting this episode together. If you found this episode helpful to you, please consider forwarding a link to it to fellow deacons or others in your congregation who you think would benefit from this material. Thank you, thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeaconorg. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.