Bob Keys: 0:00

You know you can squeeze and you can push and you can do all kinds of things to get money, but that's not what this is about. It's about this woman's heart and how God's changed it.

David Nakhla: 0:09

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Chris Cashen: 0:28

Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast. My name is Chris Cashen and I serve as pastor of Trinity Reformed OPC just outside of Washington DC in Lanham, maryland, and I also have the privilege of serving on the OPC's Committee for Diaconal Ministries. Today with me is Pastor John Shaw and Deacon Bob Keyes, both from Grace OPC in Columbus, ohio, and I believe both have been guests on the Reformed Deacon podcast before. But let me introduce these good brothers as we begin. Well, first, pastor Shaw, serving at Grace OPC. Raised as a covenant child in the OPC, served as a deacon and an elder before going to seminary and then served seven years as a church planter and pastor and mission OPC at St Paul, minnesota, and you probably know him best as the general secretary of our home missions committee. He served there for 11 years and now has been at Grace Columbus for two years as pastor. Welcome, john, really glad to have you this morning.

John Shaw: 1:26

Thanks, Chris, very happy to be with you guys.

Chris Cashen: 1:29

And Bob. Bob, you've been in Columbus for some time a few years at least, I guess since 1979 to help start the congregation there at Columbus, and been living there for the last 46 years and serving and attending that church the deacon for over 40 years that's amazing and has served for a quarter of a century in the Presbytery Diaconal Committee there in the Presbytery of Ohio and served several terms on the CDM. You're married to Kathy, two children and seven grandchildren and it's just a joy to have you back on the podcast, bob Welcome.

Bob Keys: 2:05

I'm blessed and I'm so glad to be here with you today. Thank you.

Chris Cashen: 2:09

Well, brothers, thank you for taking time to be with us. Today we're going to be discussing giving and giving in the church and very specifically financial giving. We know that the gospel is free but it takes dollars to carry it around and people have material needs within the church and at times and in particular circumstances the church is called to address those needs and certainly deacons are involved in that ministry. They're involved in this topic. Our book of church order specifically provides that the board it's referring to, the board of deacons shall oversee the ministry of mercy in the church and here's the important part shall collect and disperse funds for the relief of the needy. This was probably based upon the first group of what we might refer to as New Testament deacons who were charged with distributing food for the widows. That's from Acts, chapter 6. Now, if they were to distribute food, we can imagine that they were also called to collect the food or funds for the purchase of the food. So they likely began their ministry by encouraging others to give. In this episode we want to consider that kind of giving, that kind of encouragement in the deacon's role in doing so, so that there will be this collection of funds which then leads to distribution.

Chris Cashen: 3:33

From time to time on the podcast, we pick up a short portion of Scripture to see how it might help us think through a particular topic, and that's what we intend to do this morning. A particular topic, and that's what we intend to do this morning. We intend to open up a particular passage and consider it theologically, first, obviously, to strengthen a deacon's understanding and purpose for office, and then we're going to invite our brothers here to opine on the application of that passage. That's really what we're trying to do practically apply these particular doctrines. That's really what we're trying to do practically apply these particular doctrines. Today we're going to be looking at Luke, chapter 21, specifically verses 1 through 4. And you might know of this passage as the widow's might, but most of our discussion is going to be focused upon the application of this passage as it relates to the work of the deacon. So let me just give us a little bit of context as we get to that passage.

Chris Cashen: 4:25

Jesus was teaching in the temple, he's preaching the gospel, and now he's attacked really by the chief priests, the scribes and the religious leaders of the day. He's peppered with questions concerning his authority, his identity, really. And that brings us to his question to those who've been questioning him about Psalm 110. The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. And he asked that question how is it that David calls him Lord, who is his son? And so he's bringing that question of his identity right to their faces?

Chris Cashen: 5:03

And then he begins this In the hearing of all the people. He said to his disciples Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes and love greetings in the marketplaces, in the best seats, in the synagogues, in the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows' houses and, for a pretense, make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation. That's really important for us to understand that. That's kind of the introduction to what we have next and that which we want to focus on. It's the scribes, the religious leaders, who are devouring widows' houses in that day. Here's our text this morning let's give attention to God's Word. Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins and he said truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them, for they all contributed out of their abundance, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she had to live on. Amen, hey John, would you pray for us?

John Shaw: 6:09

I am happy to. Let's pray, lord. God, we're thankful for your word and thankful for your spirit, thankful that, as we read the scriptures, we know that you are giving us eternal truth that's for our good, to strengthen us in faith and obedience. And we're thankful, lord, in particular, for the fact that we can come to you in the name of Jesus and be reminded of your generosity toward us, the love of our Savior, and that, as we reflect on the gospel, you work in us thanksgiving and joy that overflows in service and giving. We pray, lord, that you would strengthen us in that. We know our heart is not always bent toward generosity, but that you can re-bend and direct our hearts to serve you and to serve others. And so we pray, lord, that you'd even encourage us in that, as we consider your word today, we pray these things in the great name of Jesus. Amen.

Chris Cashen: 7:05

Amen, thank you. Well, brothers, before we open up this passage specifically, I just want to kind of set the table. I suppose I would like to know how important is giving, financial giving to the church, whether it be for mercy ministry or general ministry of the Word of God. I suppose we should start there. Why should our deacons be interested in the topic of giving?

John Shaw: 7:30

Well, I think first of all we should be interested because God's interested. We'll talk about this more, but it's even just reflecting on this and preparing is reminded how often the Bible instructs us in generosity and reminds us of the generosity of God and of Jesus toward us. So I think if we understand the gospel then generous giving should be important and in fact it's at the very heart of the gospel. So that's part of how God straightens, bends our hearts more according to his will is to work generosity in us. So it's kind of at the very heart of ministry as a whole and uniquely for deacons. I maybe leave that for Bob to talk about a little bit.

Bob Keys: 8:10

I think that by nature we're very, very selfish people, but selflessness is part of the Christian heart and Christian life. And giving, not just financially I know financial giving is important but giving of our time, our energy, our gifts, our possessions and wealth and everything else that we have and are, are signs of a true changed heart by the work of the Holy Spirit. Man looks on the outward, but God looks at the heart, and I think all this is about the heart. All I'm going to be talking about is the heart. It's about our hearts and it's about what God's doing in them and through us and by us, and, again, the joy that that brings when we see others blessed by the gospel and by the meager givings that we give. It's not our gifts, it's the stewardship that God's given to us, everything that joy that we receive as we see God's blessings in this church.

Chris Cashen: 9:05

Oh man, it's real. Well, brothers, those are encouraging answers and I think what you've just done is given me the green light to go ahead and dig into this passage. So thank you. This passage gives us a little glimpse into one aspect of the Old Testament temple worship. We know that the priests, the Levites, were provided for in the sacrificial offerings, whether that was unleavened bread or meat set apart for them. So they were provided for at least in part. These gifts that Jesus observes being placed into the offering box, presumably financial gifts, and we know that for a fact that widow places two coins, two copper coins, into the box so they're not used, we don't think to support those who labored in the temple. So what were these gifts for, if we can know that?

John Shaw: 9:58

Yeah, I appreciated the question, Chris, because I don't know that this text tells us what they're for. And yet it was amazing to think about the whole of the New Testament and how much instruction there is about giving. I think if we're reading the scriptures rightly, we're reading this passage in the context of the rest of the Bible, but I think especially the New Testament, and it was kind of amazing to think about how often the New Testament talks about giving. So, thinking about Jesus, first of all, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus regularly with the Pharisees and scribes, Jesus in his parables, acts 2 through 6, james all over Paul, how much is about giving and how the giving is almost always about caring for those in need. And so, like Acts 2 has always been amazing to me, both because it gives us kind of the structure of what the church should care about, so what they're committed to, teaching and sacraments and fellowship and prayer. And yet after that the rest of the text talks about how they gave so that no one had need, and I think it's in that context that we should be reading Luke 21.

John Shaw: 11:10

This is about caring for people in need. It's what makes it so shocking, because someone who, just in the little description we get of her is, throughout scripture described as needy is giving to those in need. It's a remarkable text in that way, and we'll get to more of this. But how much that just flows out of the gospel that Jesus came to care not for those who are healthy but for those who are sick, which of course, first of all has gospel import. He's coming for sinners, not the righteous, as he says in that text Mark 2, 17. But then how we have an opportunity to live out the gospel and caring for those who are needy. I think that's the context of how we have to read this text and, again, I think it's what makes it so shocking is, in these four verses, to see a needy person who's probably poor, who is poor, caring for other people who are needy and poor. It's remarkable.

Chris Cashen: 12:07

It is. I appreciate your going to other texts to help us kind of. I'm not sure we're speculating, but maybe trying to understand how these funds might have been used. So I appreciate that.

Bob Keys: 12:18

You started the conversation in the early church, J hn in Acts, chapter 2. You didn't say enough about chapter 4 and chapter 6, but they all flow together in the early church and how the early church truly cared, loved and ministered the gospel of Christ to the world, to the church and then the world. I have to mention a guy named, one of my favorites, barnabas. Barnabas is the real guy in Acts, chapter 4. Ananias and Sapphira really weren't. They spent 10 times more time on them, but Barnabas was the guy.

Bob Keys: 12:51

Barnabas was called the son of encouragement and what did he do? What did Joseph Barnabas do? Wore off his, prospered him and he sold his stuff and laid it before the apostles' feet so that people would not be in need. And there was no need. The scriptures are clear here that there was no one that had need in the church because of this love and gracious giving by people like Barnabas. And then what did Barnabas do later on? He was one of the greatest evangelists, along with Paul, of all time. I think he should have been a deacon, but maybe he was a deacon, I don't know. But one sentence, chapter 4, and this guy out of the blue that loved the Lord, Jesus Christ was filled with spirit, gave of what he had that people would not have need. There's the example Before the deacons were even installed, stephen Philip and all the other five, before they were installed, it was Barnabas who showed the church how to love, how to give and how to care for those in need.

Bob Keys: 13:47

And again, I love Barnabas, son of encouragement, and I'll talk a lot about encouragement here, because I think that's what the deacons do. We encourage by our love for Christ, mercy ministry and we show the church I'll talk a lot about this later, but again, this is what we do. This is what the deacons, their blood, is all about. They're about showing and facilitating the mercy ministry, just as Barnabas did, the son of encouragement for the gospel of Christ.

Chris Cashen: 14:16

Very good. Just an aside, bob is it the deacons' practice at Grace to take up a separate offering for mercy ministries?

Bob Keys: 14:25

We always have.

Bob Keys: 14:26

I think it's so important that the diaconal offerings be separate from the regular tithes and offerings.

Bob Keys: 14:33

I think there's lots of reasons for that, Chris.

Bob Keys: 14:35

I think that one we need to present to the church what the deacon does and what mercy ministry is, and we have a lot of new visitors in our church.

Bob Keys: 14:44

We have a lot of new members in our church that really don't know really what deacons do.

Bob Keys: 14:47

A lot of them are not from Reformed and Presbyterian churches and the deacon in other churches, if they have deacons, they don't do what we do, and so it's really important that they begin to see that this is a separate offering for mercy ministry for the cause of Christ and for the gospel of Christ to be proclaimed not only within the church but outside the church, and that the world might know and see the love and the mercy of our Savior Jesus Christ, and his self-sacrificing for us is an example for us to do the same thing for others. May the Lord grant the church that same idea that we serve and minister by these offerings to the church and to the world, the gospel of Christ. And so, yes, it's very important we need to have separate offerings where we communicate what we do, how we do it and confidentially be various things we can speak of that tell of how we're using the funds to bless the body of Christ and to show the gospel to non-believers.

Chris Cashen: 15:47

Yeah, thank you. So back to the passage, John. It seems that some may walk away from this passage with the thought that Jesus really cares little for giving by the wealthy. He doesn't focus on those folks at all. Is that the case?

John Shaw: 16:09

It's not the case, and I really appreciated that you included the couple of verses from the end of chapter 20 and described some of the context. You know the encouragement is to give from the heart. We'll get to that a little bit, but even the warning about the scribes, I mean, these are people of significance, in position and power and even in wealth, and they give for all the wrong reasons, if we think about how the Gospels describe them. They don't give in secret, they give in public, so that people will recognize them. They wear, as it said, long robes and do all these things to be noticed, offer long prayers, and there's a sense in which what Jesus is doing in the text, like he does so often, is present.

John Shaw: 16:54

Two types of people in contrast, and so this poor widow becomes the example, even because of her circumstance, of someone who gives a generosity that's surprising and almost shocking, because there's a sense in which we could say she's the one in need. Why would she give? And yet she gives and she becomes an encouragement. Uh, holy Spirit, generated, prod, if you will, to all of us, whether we have abundance or not, to give from the heart out of thanksgiving and joy. So I was thinking of Philippians 4, where Paul says this kind of surprising thing that he's content whether in plenty or in want.

John Shaw: 17:38

And I think sometimes we read that and say, well, of course he's content when there's plenty in want. And I think sometimes we read that and say, well, of course he's content when there's plenty because it's easy to be content then. But actually we know as we grow older that it's just as hard to be content in plenty as it is in want. But generosity flows from contentment. So that's maybe a roundabout way to get at it to say he's concerned about all of us. He's concerned about all of us, wealthy or poor. That, by the grace of God, we have fostered in our hearts the kind of thankfulness that overflows in generosity. We see that so clearly in this poor widow.

Bob Keys: 18:21

So yeah, he cares about all of us poor or rich, that we would respond to the gospel with thankfulness and generosity. I got to follow along with that with Philippians 2. You talked about Philippians 4, but I go to Philippians 2 first. Look at Christ. Look at Christ. Look at our Savior.

Bob Keys: 18:32

Let me read just a little bit of Philippians 2, which again is one of my favorite passages. Let me read the whole thing. If there's any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind, Do nothing from self-ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only for his own interests but also for the interests of others. Selflessness, giving. And again I have to make one more comment. I think there is a gift of the spirit of giving in Scripture that talks about giving, people being able to give out of their abundance, and that's a gift from the Spirit as well, and that's good. So I don't, as John said, it's not about the amount, it's about the heart and about loving others in generosity.

Chris Cashen: 19:30

Well, brothers, that has caused me to think about this a bit. Do you think that there is some parallel between this widow, this poor widow who gives out of her poverty, and Jesus Christ, who comes in poverty so to speak, I think, absolutely.

John Shaw: 19:53

You know, I think you're hoping eventually to get us to 2 Corinthians 9 and the connection I mean. I think clearly all of this is rooted in the gospel, where Jesus isn't just an example to be imitated though he is but that by his work in his death, resurrection and ascension, his spirit being sent to us, our hearts are changed, our perspective reformed and remade so that we, like that Philippians 2 text says, we have his mind among us. Our minds and hearts are changed and bent toward Jesus, and that's where I think all of this is kind of taking us. The whole bent of scripture is that God has a heart for the nations there's evangelism and a heart for the poor and oppressed there's generosity. He displays it in Jesus. Nations, there's evangelism in a heart for the poor and oppressed, there's generosity. He displays it in Jesus, and then, as he regenerates us, he makes us like Jesus so yeah, I think she's.

Bob Keys: 20:57

She's pointing us toward Jesus and what he does on the cross. Very good, I think back on matthew 5, poverty. Matthew 5 Jesus talks about the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God. Again, the difference is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. It's all about the Holy Spirit's work. You know you can squeeze and you can push and you can do all kinds of things to get money, but that's not what this is about. It's about this woman's heart and how God's changed it.

Chris Cashen: 21:24

So, Bob, if I were to point you to Abram giving a tenth of everything to Melchizedek and other passages in Scripture which speak of a tenth as a standard for giving, or at least a model. It appears that the widow's gifts was much less than that, and yet Jesus praises her. How can that be?

Bob Keys: 21:44

Well, that was an interesting question and I'm still contemplating. Let me tell you what I think Jesus says in the passage that she gave all that she had to live on. I don't know what percentage that was or what tie that equates to, but I do know that Jesus was looking at her heart. Again, all I can say I keep talking about the heart and not to a percentage or a dollar amount. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He can supply anything. He doesn't need our money. He needs our heart. He needs our hearts. Man looks on the outward, but God looks on the heart. Man looks on the outward, but God looks on the heart.

Chris Cashen: 22:21

Well, there are certainly other passages in Scripture that deal with giving, and 2 Corinthians 9, verse 5 reads this way. So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to go on ahead to you arrange in advance for the gift you promised. So Paul's already looking forward to this giving that has been promised to him. He's coming to get it. And then we read this the point is this whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he's decided in his heart. We've heard that word many times already today, Not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. So, John, you've already alluded to this, but could you open that up just a bit more? How does this passage in 2 Corinthians work with the passage of the widow's mite that we're considering today?

John Shaw: 23:15

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things just in those couple verses. I'm interested in verse 6 that it really talks about the reward for giving, which I think we're a little bit afraid to talk about sometimes because we want it to be sacrificial. We forget that there's actually a reward and that God promises that. See you, sow bountifully, reap bountifully. I think it's interesting as well that it says the person who gives that he or she has decided not in his mind but in his heart. It's a really interesting turn of phrase that Paul does. We know the heart in Scripture kind of is the rudder that guides our words and our actions. So it's in some sense saying his whole life is bent toward generosity and therefore he doesn't give reluctantly, he gives cheerfully. To get at how this connects to the widow.

John Shaw: 24:13

I think what else is interesting in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 as a whole is that it begins and ends with the gospel. So it begins with Jesus, who was willing to become poor so that you could become rich, taking us to the cross, and it ends chapter nine does, with Paul rejoicing in, I think, in Christ, this inexpressible gift, which isn't just salvation through the cross but it's Christ as a whole. And so I think what Paul's doing is saying this heart that's been captured by God and changed by God is so captured with the beauty of Jesus that it's now bent toward thanksgiving, toward joy, toward generosity. And isn't that what we see in the widow, that she one recognizes that even in her poverty the Lord has dealt graciously with her. So she's rejoicing and thankful even in her poverty, and she sees that other people's need might be greater than hers.

John Shaw: 25:21

That only makes sense in light of the gospel and what Christ has done for us. And so I think all that's kind of underneath Luke 21. And, like you suggested earlier, Chris, that she is in some sense pointing us toward Jesus. Very clearly, the gospel is at the heart of this, toward Jesus. Very clearly, the gospel is at the heart of this. And so if we're going to grow in generosity and our churches are our primary focus, doesn't change. We give them Jesus and the gospel over and over again and remind them of this inexpressible gift that is ours in Jesus, and the only natural response is thanksgiving, joy and generosity.

Chris Cashen: 26:03

Good. Thank you Well, bob. I don't want to throw darts and arrows at the widow, but in 1 Timothy 5, paul tells Timothy if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for the members of his household, he's denied. The faith is worse than an unbeliever. As Jesus observes this widow, he sees that she puts in all she had to live on. Now Luke doesn't tell us anything more other than she gave out of her poverty. But how can we really read this passage of the widow's might and Jesus prays for her alongside Paul's admonishment to Timothy about denying the faith?

Bob Keys: 26:42

Another great question. I enjoyed thinking about this one and in 1 Timothy 5, we ask the question who is Paul talking about in the passage? I mean, we always want to ask ourselves these kind of questions when we read Scripture. If anyone I'm going to use the word anyone, that's what Paul uses if anyone, who is this anyone? Why is this person not providing for his family is the real bottom line question, I believe in the passage. I look at it. Could it be sin? I think it is sin. Could it be this? Anyone is lazy, greedy, self-indulgent, a drunken, addict or worse. What kind of heart does this anyone have in this 1 Timothy passage? What relationship do they have with Christ is what we always ask as a deacon. Where are they at? What motivates them? And I have to believe that Paul is looking at someone that needs Jesus Christ, and that's what he basically says at the end in terms of his final understanding of who this person is.

Bob Keys: 27:43

This is not the widow in our Luke passage. Her heart is this love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That's what she is. The Holy Spirit's work in her heart and her life. It's the gospel that's changed her and this is not the person of 1 Timothy 5. It's directly opposite and this is not the person of 1 Timothy 5. It's directly opposite and so this is the way to look at it. It's not at all the same heart. It's two different hearts, and the other heart needs to see the gospel that the widow has and repent and turn to the Lord, Jesus Christ, and be saved and then develop a heart of the widow.

Chris Cashen: 28:21

That's very helpful. Bob Brothers, we've been practical, I think, but I want to even get more practical at this point and I think we're agreed and help me if I got this wrong, but I think we're agreed that the diaconate should be involved in encouraging members of the congregation to give. So, john, in speaking with members about giving, is it possible to cross the line, meaning as a deacon or an elder encourages members to give, be received not as encouragement but as an onerous command, such that the members feel pressured into giving? And if you think that that's a possibility, how would you avoid that?

John Shaw: 29:15

I think it's definitely a possibility. Thinking back to, you know again, 2 Corinthians 9, verses 6, verses 6 and 7, encouraging people to give from the heart, not reluctantly, but also not under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. I think it's even possible to use the biblical model of a tithe as a club rather than an encouragement, and I think you even see kind of a not a shift, but a gospel development in how giving is talked about, in that the New Testament spends less time on tithe and more time on cheerful giving and generosity, and there's even some warnings from Jesus about how the tithe can be used in a way that stands in conflict with the gospel. I don't wanna go into those texts right now, but as he's warning about the Pharisees, and so I think there's both a danger and I think the remedy in some sense this might be too simplistic, but I'll try to explain what I mean by it is more gospel Just reminding people, and I think that's what Paul's doing. So he's coming to collect a gift that they've already promised to give. When he goes to the Corinthians, they're giving to support people who are in need in Jerusalem. He's traveling to plant churches, but also to gather offerings to care for those in need, obligations about caring for people in need, but he primarily encourages them through the gospel and through what Jesus has done for them.

John Shaw: 30:48

And I think part of our reluctance and I think there is a reluctance on the part of pastors to preach about giving is because we're afraid that we're going to use it to lead people to give out of compulsion rather than out of a heart that's changed by the gospel.

John Shaw: 31:03

And this is where elders and deacons can work hand in hand. You know, the elders and pastors who have a word in prayer bent to their ministry and the deacons that have a service bent that we all do our jobs, our tasks, well and do them hand in hand and let pastors and elders be pastors and elders and deacons be deacons. I think that's a big piece of it. So we're holding forth, as pastors and elders, the gospel and then the obedience that flows from the gospel, and then the deacons are setting an example of and then encouraging and motivating people toward generosity and service. Those things work hand in glove and I think you know the Spirit works through those things to bend people toward generosity. That's maybe not very specific, but I hope it helps kind of get there. I think it does.

Bob Keys: 31:54

My heart is this your question was so real, but there are ways that deacons need to encourage the church and I'll give you three points that I think every deacon should consider in terms of how we encourage and bless the church in terms of giving. And let me give those in three separate points. Number one, and I think it's the most important, we haven't talked enough about it prayer. We need to first pray individually for our own hearts to grow in our own love as deacons for mercy. If we aren't growing in our love for mercy, what do we expect? We need to pray as the deacon board for the work in the church that he will facilitate the mercy ministry of the body, and that's a general statement but it can lead to all different kinds of specific ways in which we see people begin to really understand mercy ministry from the gospel and begin to act and give in a general sense, in every sense, to the church and those outside the church for the gospel. And we need to pray for the Spirit's work in changing our congregation into an outward basing, mercy-loving church. So important, first pray. Number two encouragement. I Barnabas. There he is by being an example of sacrificial loving and giving, giving of our time, giving of our own wealth, giving of our talents and gifts and giving of our hearts to and for others. He's powerful. A good friend of mine told me this when I was 25 years old More is caught than taught. So true, if the church doesn't see it in our lives, what's going to motivate them, if the deacons can't do it? But if we do it, we can lead the church in true mercy ministry for the cause of Christ, for our Savior.

Bob Keys: 33:50

The last one is communication. Use the word communicate, communicate, communicate. It sounds like a realtor saying location, location, location, but in the deacon's life it's communication. Let others know what mercy ministry really looks like. Teach them, by working side by side with them, how loving mercy and how to be a servant and to wash people's feet. Don't expect them to give unless they are shown, encouraged and prayed with. Let them see the blessings of giving financially and giving of themselves to the lives of others. This will be used by the Holy Spirit to give real life meaning to mercy ministry. They have to experience and see firsthand how it changes lives and gives them real joy and peace in the Lord. It's contagious, an outward-facing Mercy Ministry church dedicated to meeting real needs in the hearts of others is a true gospel witness in what will change the life and the heart of a church and its members. It'll change a church and I don't know what you're going to do with all the funds, but there's always need.

Chris Cashen: 35:00

Thank you, bob. Well, brothers, let me give you a scenario and open it up for your response. You've got a widow in your church who's approached you after reading this passage in Luke 21 and is moved by the widow's offering. She's excited and she tells you that she's now ready to cash in her retirement account and, in obedience to Christ, pour the entire thing into the offering plate. How do you respond? What do you say to this dear woman?

Bob Keys: 35:29

I love that. I would just man, wow, I wouldn't want to discourage her. And yet what I would say one is once she's a widow, let's talk about her being a widow first. That means she doesn't have a husband, she doesn't have someone. Maybe he did all the financial planning, maybe he did all the finances First.

Bob Keys: 35:47

I hope you know her, I hope she trusts you. I hope that you have been walking side by side or through the difficult process of becoming a widow. Number two ask what your real needs are. Maybe, if her husband was doing all the financial stuff, you need to step in and lovingly and graciously help her with her finances, figuring out how to pay the bills and how to do the taxes and do the other things that a widow may never have done. If that's the case, then that's where you start. You start with a relationship that you can encourage her and bless her.

Bob Keys: 36:20

Her heart is just like the widow at her mites. What a blessing to see that kind of heart that loves the Lord that much. So you don't want to discourage that, but work with her. Help her to see how to wisely budget and if she really wants to, she can make a will which she should have and give her money at the end. If she doesn't have a family, give it to the church, but give it at the end rather than immediately.

Bob Keys: 36:46

It's called wisdom and love Wisely telling this widow how to wisely budget and take care of what God's given her but be generous in all that she has and encourage her to do things that she's able to do given other ways as well. There's so many different ways that a widow can encourage a family that has six children that she can pray for the congregation. So it's not just finances, it's all about life and how she can serve and minister to your church in so many different ways that she has, for the glory of God and for the benefit of the church. So I think it's a much bigger picture than just giving all she has. I think it's really about how to encourage her, how to instruct her, how to walk beside her, how to encourage her in where she's at as a widow. And what a blessing to hear about this widow and her heart for the Lord.

Chris Cashen: 37:36

All right brothers. One more scenario A significant diaconal need has been presented to the church. Mr Jones imaginary, a longtime faithful member of the church, has been diagnosed with cancer, but he has no health insurance and, as we all know, the cost of medical care is great. The actinal fund is insufficient. So what do you do? How do you use the principles we've discussed from Luke and 2 Corinthians and 1 Timothy to address this? Where do we look? What do we?

John Shaw: 38:06

do Bob, if that's all right, please, I think. Just two quick things. First of all, this is where I think sessions and deacons working together is a big deal and I'm not sure we always connect them as well as we should. So there's clearly mercy needs, but also significant spiritual needs, and I think coming up with a plan for the session and for the deacons to work together is a big deal, and recognizing how that all fits together, I think I just want to get this in. I feel like I'm in a volleyball match where I set and then Bob spikes. So I just wanted to get in front of Bob on this one, because he's gotten in front of me a couple of times when I had stuff in my notes for later Just lots of prayer. I'm with Bob on that.

John Shaw: 38:52

I had prayer written down that I was going to get to. It's instructive to me that John Calvin was the theologian of the Holy Spirit who also, like his section in the Institutes on Prayer, is some of the best writing on prayer in the history of the church. Probably that reformed folks aren't known as they should be for their dependence on the Holy Spirit and their commitment to prayer, and this is, you know, someone who needs a lot of prayer from the whole church. So thinking about how to get the whole church engaged, not just in serving but in praying, is a big deal. We have several people in our church that it's not similar to this and that they have health insurance, but it's amazing how people who can't get to church because of their health needs but can listen online and hear themselves prayed for by name.

John Shaw: 39:45

I'll get texts during the worship service that I find after the service. Thank you so much for praying for me. I miss the church so much, like there's just something about that. That prayer has all sorts of aspects of the ways that the Lord uses it, but it's an encouragement for people to know the church is praying for them when they're in deep need. So then I'll hand off to Bob, because you know, if an elder or pastor gets this, one of the first things they should do is pull their deacons in and say help us.

Bob Keys: 40:18

So, john, I love your setup. The whole church is the real key here. It takes a whole church. There are so many issues, not just financial, here. It's more about so many different issues that Mr Jones has, and it takes the whole church. It takes the leadership, but it also takes the congregation.

Bob Keys: 40:31

And you're so right, john, prayer is so important here, and not just for him, but with him and praying with people. It goes from a two-dimensional to a three-dimensional structure that brings God directly to him. Now, from a deacon's perspective, that's part of the deacons. I mean deacons should be praying with people. I just think that's so important. I think so many deacons think that that's not part of their job, and I absolutely know that one of the most important things deacons can do is pray with those in need Cannot be replaced.

Bob Keys: 41:04

Now, in terms of Mr Jones, let's consider Mr Jones. He's worried, he's fearful, not only about finances but about his life. So there's many issues that need to be dealt with, and so the whole church, as I said, needs to be involved. Think about who is in your church that can help him in all the different aspects of his need. I'm sure he probably has a family and they too are scared and they too have need. So you have lots of different needs and a lot of different ways in which the deacons should be pulling people together to make meals, walk side by side with the wife, the husband, encouraging them in their faith and their trust in Christ. Now let's talk about the finances. I mean, that's the other part I think is the most important. But the finances, to me, are rather simple, but we can talk about them. I mean, there's lots of different ways that we can handle that, but go slow. One is go slow. This is not a race, this is a slow process. Look for family help first. That's biblically solid. Look for the family. What can the family do? And the hospital's gonna pay for a lot of this. Trust me, 60 to 80% is gonna be all gone before you even start, when they realize that they have no insurance and their finances are limited. So again, that's our system and it's not wrong to use the hospital and their means to help in this matter.

Bob Keys: 42:25

I love Presbyterianism. It's really a wonderful thing and the reality is is we have the church community first and if we communicate, communicate, communicate in the right ways, lovingly, thinking about this family and how we should communicate wisely for them and not hurt them. I guarantee you churches will give sacrificially for this long-term member in need. But we're not alone. We got a presbytery, we got churches in our area that are just waiting to help encourage and bless this family and they want to hear about what God's doing in this situation. And so the PDC, our Presbytery Diaconal Committees, are ready to alert our churches in our presbyteries to help fund and minister to this family.

Bob Keys: 43:13

And I have never seen a need yet in 25 years in our Ohio Presbytery that we weren't able to adequately handle through a letter of clarity of what's going on in this church with Mr Jones, that the other churches didn't joyfully send money to help. And if that didn't work, if it was a much bigger picture than even that, then we have the denomination level, the Committee on Diaconal Ministries that's willing and ready to help as well, and this is called Presbyterianism. We're not alone, we're not a local church on an island. We are together as a part of the Church of Jesus Christ. What a blessing to know that we're cared for and loved by many, many churches and a denomination that is for the blessings and the mercies of our Lord Jesus Christ. So again, that's a long answer to a really a fairly short question. But the reality is the deacon has many, many ways in which they can facilitate and bless this family in great need, and yet God is always there to supply richly through the churches of Jesus Christ.

Chris Cashen: 44:18

Amen Brothers, thank you, John and Bob, for taking the time to help us walk through a few passages of scripture on financial giving. But you men have turned it to the heart and so I really appreciate that. That's been encouraging to me and I hope it's been encouraging to our deacons, even taking a difficult topic and pointing us right back to Jesus, right back to the gospel and to the center of the heart. So thank you, brothers, deacons, we hope that this episode is helpful to you and will be an encouragement in your labors for the Lord.