David Nakhla: 0:00

Since launching The Reformed Deacon podcast four years ago, one of our favorite things has been hearing from you, our listeners, about how the podcast has encouraged and helped you. Here are a couple of comments from our listeners. Thank you for providing a realistic and encouraging plan for those of us who want to do something but haven't known where to start. What a wonderful, helpful, and informative podcast. And here's another one. Thank you for your podcast. It has been a valuable resource for training materials, ministry ideas, and general encouragement. Friends, we'd love to hear from you too. Tell us how the podcast or a specific episode has helped or encouraged you, or share a topic you think we should cover next. If you'll email us your story or suggestion to mail M-A-I-L at thereformdeacon.org. We're going to send you a reformed deacon teacher, the nicest teacher you'll own. And we're excited to keep producing episodes that help you grow as a deacon and serve as a faithful testimony to the Lord in the season ahead.

Mark Winder: 1:01

The congregation, in some sense, I think, has come alive. If you will, people know who to go to to get things done.

David Nakhla: 1:08

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reform Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. Hi, my name is David Knockla. I'm the administrator of the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. And today we have the privilege of having Mark Winder join us. Mark is the pastor of Wolf River OPC in Collierville, Tennessee. This is a congregation that was planted a number of years ago, but since has particularized. And Mark also hosts a podcast called Proclaiming Christ, which is one of the Reform Forum's suite of podcasts. Mark is a member of the OPC's Denominational Committee on Home Missions and Church Extension. He has also served on his Presbytery's Home Missions Committee for nearly 20 years. So Mark has a lot of connections with church planting and church plants. Mark, you and I recently connected at a home missions conference for church plants. In our casual conversation around the fire pit, I remember you excitingly telling me that after 14 years your church had finally installed your first two deacons. You said something like, This has revolutionized our church. You went on to express your regret and not pursuing deacons sooner. And you told me that you now encourage pastors, get your deacons sooner rather than later. So we need to really finish that conversation. And even at that moment, that I was like, okay, we got to have you on the podcast. We got to talk about this more. Very intrigued to hear more about what you have to say. And so thank you for joining us today, Mark.

Mark Winder: 3:01

Thank you for having me. It was a good conversation, and I'm happy that we might be able to continue it today. Super.

David Nakhla: 3:08

Before I go further, let me uh give a little background on Mark. He and his wife, Michelle, have been married for 36 years. They have three adult children. He worked for a number of years in the corporate world before pursuing the ministry in his early 30s, and he was ordained as an OPC minister in 2003. So 22 years ago. First serving Louisiana, then Alabama. Yep. Before the Lord led him to begin the work of planting Wolf River OPC in Tennessee in 2010. That's now 15 years ago.

Mark Winder: 3:41

Hard to believe.

David Nakhla: 3:43

Yeah. So, Mark, you started this church plant in 2010, of course, without deacons. I mean, as most church plants begin, it's not uncommon. And then you went for a number of years without deacons. And maybe you could talk about that and talk about the challenge to establish officers in a church plant and maybe even the challenge of deacons. Let's begin there.

Mark Winder: 4:07

Sure. You know, our Book of Church Order requires that a group of believers that are meeting for worship regularly comes under the jurisdiction of a session or of a presbytery. So it doesn't require deacons because the service of deacons, as the book says elsewhere, is distinct from that of rule in the church. So technically, you know, you have to have elders, you have to have an overseeing session. Every mission work is immediately given an overseeing session, but it's not an absolute requirement that you have deacons. And that overseeing session, along with the church planter, when he arrives, should early on be seeking to identify, you know, qualified individuals in the congregation who can be trained to serve as elders and deacons when the church organizes. And sometimes that takes years and years to develop, but you're looking for those who have the gifts of ordained offices. And sometimes mission works have someone or maybe a few people who have been previously ordained as an elder or a deacon, or and without being presumptuous, you know, quite frequently they can go on and be installed as elders and deacons when the church organizes. But sometimes there are no previously ordained elders or deacons. And there are no people who immediately stand out as office bears. You might have new converts, you might have people who are new to the Reformed faith, or people that are immature in their faith, perhaps immature in their personal growth, young families that are perhaps very busy and for whom it takes perhaps some time for them to grasp the priority of church work. And you know, each church plant is unique. Some of them start off with large groups of families from a mother congregation that might be as well sending elders and deacons along, which is wonderful when we can do that. And that congregation, that mission may mature quite quickly. And others, though, they start from scratch and sometimes starting with people who sometimes have a particular idea of what they are looking for in a church. And they're going to establish that here in that mission. And sometimes things need some undoing before you start doing some things. And in the case of Wolf River, we were growing, and then a number of families moved away. And about four years into it, we essentially had to start over. And then it took some time to develop those gifts and folks to develop that desire because the offices of ruling elder and deacon are offices of sacrifice. You're volunteering your time and your talents and your energies to engage in the work of the church in depth way. You know, elders and deacons frequently have to take time off work to go to Presbytery at times. You need to take vacation days to do that. When we were talking at the church planters conference up in Wisconsin, I was there with another member of the Home Missions Committee just to be a part of that experience and to see what they're doing there in that church planters conference and hopefully be an encouragement to some of the young church planters who are there. And, you know, the other guy with me who is part of the committee is a ruling elder. He took a week off of work, vacation week, to spend his vacation up there and encourage those church planters. And so that's a sacrifice. And for young families particularly, that can be a difficult sacrifice. So I think that can play into why it's a challenge to establish those officers in a church plant when some are fairly new to the reform faith. But the session needs to be intentional about developing that.

David Nakhla: 8:05

Great. Thank you. Did you at some point realize your church maybe had gone beyond the what's the normal situation for a church plant with regards to your lack of deacons? And if so, you know, what made you realize that? What brought you to the point of ordaining them?

Mark Winder: 8:21

Yeah, that's a great question. And if I could maybe start by a text that had kind of been on my mind for a number of years, and really it's one of my favorite verses on the task of a minister. And I'm sure, you know, you've touched on this and as you've spoken with deacons and with churches, and that's Ephesians 4.12. Talks about the fact that God's giving presence to his church, he's giving gifts to his church, and he gave the apostles and the prophets, and they they've laid the groundwork for the church. And as the task of the church continues, he continues to give gifts to the church, right? And their elders and evangelists and shepherds and teachers. And why does he do that? Well, he does that, he's Ephesians 4.12, to equip the saints for the work of ministry to the building up of the body of Christ. So foundational to the work of every church is equipping the saints for the work of ministry. And that work of ministry is diaconius. It's the word service. So it's it's a very common word, and it functions in a variety of ways in the New Testament. The AIV puts it ministry, but the NIV, the New American Standard, I think, translate it correctly as the work of service. And as you probably know, some follow the King James and they put a comma after the word saints, so that the shepherds and teachers are supposed to perfect the saints and then do the work of ministry. And that's a whole different discussion that goes beyond the question you just asked me. But I think there are some very good exegetical reasons why that comma shouldn't be there, as it isn't in most translations. They eliminate that comma. And I think the task of serving is incumbent on all believers. And you get a sense of that in other texts, right? There's a bunch of other texts that address that. Hebrews 6.10, where the writer says, God won't overlook your work and the love that you show for his name in serving the saints, as you still do, the word there, the verb form, diacneo. So I sometimes refer to the communion of saints as the fourth means of grace. And I think I say that probably quite frequently to our congregation. It's a fourth means of grace. In Acts 242, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, the koinonia to the breaking of bread and prayers. And vital communion isn't just a fraternal feeling, right? Vital communion is a covenant reality. So we're united to Christ who covenant with us, and I covenant with you, and I work for your spiritual welfare. And we speak of God's steadfast love, his covenant loyalty, his covenant faithfulness. And the people of God are to be devoted to a covenant loyalty to his people. So in each church that I planted, it became clearer to me that worship is vital, of course, it's essential to the church, right? And fellowship vital. Activities, church picnics, outings, so important to a church. But that kind of supernatural fellowship and fraternity that builds the church, that binds the church together is the fellowship of service. And again, Ephesians 4. We grow up into Christ, the head, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it's equipped, each part working properly makes the body grow. So it builds itself up in love. So to get back to your question, because that was a uh there's a concept that's fascinated me over the years to watch that developing in the church. I became a little concerned about, okay, in our mission work, where is the mechanism that provides for this kind of vital communion? And he'd seen it in other churches that uh I'd planted church where I had trained deacons in a previous church that I was church planter in. And, you know, we had sent a group down during Hurricane Katrina for OPC disaster response and the kind of communion that came about as a result of that, that serving together. I don't know if you remember the name Gary Smalley. He was a Christian counselor some years back. But he tells a story of, you know, if you, and I'm sure he said this a lot better than I'm about to say it, but he said, if you want your family to become close, really close, he said, go camping. And you're thinking, camping? Oh, that's terrible. That's like the worst thing you can do for a family is to make them go camping. And he said, you know, but that's the point, is because that's when disaster strikes. You know, it's inevitable that it's going to rain and your tarp is going to fall and your tent's going to flood and your air mattress is going to deflate and it's just going to be awful. And what do you do though? You pull together. And what do you talk about five years later? You're talking about that camping trip. You know, you hardly mentioned Disney World. No, you're talking about the camping trip that you went on and the work that you did together to pull together. And there's a sense in which that's what deacons do, and that's what service does. And I could try to provide for that to the best of my ability in our church, even after it organized. We organized initially without deacons. We have some families in our church who are wonderfully hospitable, wonderful group of ladies. They're always active, looking for each other's needs. There's a lot of good organic activity. But where's the glue that holds that together? That makes sure that everybody is being involved, that this kind of fellowship touches everyone in the church. It's the deacons. And we're rolling along, doing okay. But as the church grows and as we realize that this kind of vital fellowship is a little discombobulated, we need deacons. We need those whose name is service. And that's our Book of Church Order puts it, right? Those who minister in mercy and service, they are called deacons. And to them, specifically, that ministry of service belongs. And so we said, we need deacons. We need those who can bring this together and bring it to its full potential.

David Nakhla: 14:39

It's beautiful, Mark. I don't think I've ever heard that articulated in that way. That's wow. I'd love to see that flushed out even more. That's that's really great.

Mark Winder: 14:48

It's a great passage of scripture. I explored it in depth with our congregation that Ephesians 4.12, the implications of what it means to equip saints for the work of Deakoneo, for the work of deaconing, the work of serving. And then God gives the offices to facilitate that work as unfolds, of course, as you know, in the book of Acts.

David Nakhla: 15:11

It's one of the differences from the church being a country club. Country club, you go there to be served, everything's set out for you. And it's yeah, the sense of sacrificially serving one another is really in a lot of ways makes the church the church.

Mark Winder: 15:25

Yeah, and we got to that point here. We are not a theology club, right? The church is not a theology club that gets together every Sunday morning and you know, we want a deep, you know, rich sermon, and you know, we want to study systematic theology and mercy ministry. What what's that? No, that the church isn't a theology club. We are a church that serves and deacons facilitate that. So that's where we said, no, that's a need that it comes to for us.

David Nakhla: 15:52

Do you think that was a development in your thinking?

Mark Winder: 15:54

Well, it certainly was. Again, the church that I previously planted, we had trained some deacons, and then the way that they served, they served so well. One of them in that church is still a deacon, still very active, uh goes on mission trips and things of that nature. And then in our church, again, people were very active in serving and very anxious to serve, but so it was maybe a gradual realization that this has to be intentional. It can't just be sort of ad hoc. We need to be deliberate about this. And my thinking through that Ephesians passage as well as other passages, and then seeing as well people who did serve in our congregation, seeing the difference that they made. We had a couple of men in the congregation who went up to North Carolina a couple of years ago during that initial hurricane hit, and they went with a group from another church and came back and they uh shared in Sunday school about you know what they did and you know, showed the slides and things of that nature. And again, a development in my thinking, yeah, that's a good way to put it, that we need to make this something intentional.

David Nakhla: 17:02

So on a previous podcast, we had John Shaw on there, the previous general secretary of home missions, and similarly talking about the serious need for deacons, especially in a church plant, especially with the diaconal cases that can arise in a church plant, as you're out there sowing the seed, bringing in the lost, lots of baggage that comes in with that, and just significant diagonal situations that can arise in church plants. That's something I've thought a bit about in recent years as well, is the higher percentage of probably serious diaconal situations in our church plants, more than full-grown established congregations. And he talked about it, even his own personal experience as a church planner at Mission OPC in the Twin Cities. I was wondering if you could share with us how your session went about handling the practical and diaconal needs during those years. What did that look like? Did you have to establish creative ways to wait on tables without letting it hinder the ministry of the word and prayer?

Mark Winder: 18:03

Yeah, well, even though we didn't have deacons, you know, again, we did have people who love to serve, and people are very active and they care for one another. And so if you ask somebody to do something, you would very rarely get a no, I can't. In our situation, because of a variety of circumstances, we were in mission work for 10 years, which is unusually long. And there were, you know, a number of circumstances that led to that. But during that time, with a borrowed session from other states and even from another presbytery, you know, the diaconal work, to be frank, it fell on me. And I can't say that I was very effective. But, you know, I at least I think I'm fairly good at delegation, of being able to hand out different tasks and trying to organize those tasks. And when you have people who enjoy serving, it's a lot easier. So I had a section in our bulletin called How Can I Serve? Just a little title, How Can I Serve? And then underneath a list of things. As new needs came up, I would add those needs to the list and people would volunteer for those. And eventually the list disappeared. And service took on a life of its own. You know, no sooner does a storm blow up and people lose electricity for three days when there are four or five generators being offered on a chat group. You know, is everybody okay? Who needs help? And the church would come together and do that. And when people catch the sacrifice of service, the satisfaction of that sacrifice of service, the joy of it, then it's contagious. And being able to see progress being made, there's a saying that I hear frequently from a group that I'm part of, and the director quite frequently says that hard work is fun when progress is evident. And you could see that in the church. But I'd say a lot of things would fall between the cracks. I can't say that I wasn't the most effective in being able to organize those things, but we always prioritized needs in the congregation, and those needs I think were met. We had family, particularly a couple families at times that fell in serious financial need. And we were able to be there for them. We were able to provide, we were able to help pay bills so they didn't lose their car or lose their house. The head of the home was in the hospital for a week due to an accident, and people were there every day visiting. So it got done, but it was sometimes not in the most organized fashion. And I can't say that outside the church we had any sort of effective diaconal ministry.

David Nakhla: 20:48

So the situation you just described is oftentimes what we do think of as some of the primary work of the deacons is seeking to address those situations of significant acute need. Our form of government, in the chapter on deacons, chapter chapter nine, I believe it is, it says, in a church in which there are no deacons, the duties of the office shall devolve upon the session. And that word devolve, I think that's the only time it appears in our book of church order. We talked about that at the fire pit. What did you say?

Mark Winder: 21:20

I sometimes joke that when we had no deacons, the duties of their office dissolved upon the session. I mean, we have two of the best elders in the world in our church. We really do. One of them works full-time and more. The other is retired, and he devotes himself to the church in so many ways. They work very hard and we take our time at session meetings, but I still think things fell through the cracks. And not necessarily, again, in care for the saints. We always tried to be on top of that. And again, we have a wonderful ladies group. They're in constant contact with each other. We've had a lot of babies born over the past few years. So I think there's a perpetual meal train going in our church. And at one point, I don't know if they still do this, but you know, they would just have meals in the freezer at the church because it's everybody always needed one. But some things, again, I think still fell through the cracks, developing policies, programs to promote fellowship in the church. We're in a rented facility and it has perpetual problems. And we needed a DAC in it because, yeah, some of those things I think were just dissolving on the session.

David Nakhla: 22:32

I mean, it's kind of an Act Six thing, isn't it? The division of labor, because it's hard to do both well. And so dividing the labor and having both offices focus separately on the different areas or one will suffer. That's I don't think it's a new problem. No, no.

Mark Winder: 22:50

When we were training the deacons, they've been ordained now for one year, I think last month. It was one their one-year anniversary. And as we were going through training, we were going through the gospel of Luke. And so I thought, well, what am I going to do next? And I thought, well, let's do Luke part two. So we went on to the gospel or the book of Acts, and you know, we get through that early church stage, and you think about the fact that the church is growing by thousands upon thousands. And you have 12 disciples who, you know, they're probably being called for some home visits because there's a lot of broken homes and a lot of spouses who aren't thrilled that their spouse just became a convert to this weird religion. And you know, how are these guys supposed to handle all of this? And then, of course, you get to Acts 6 and you have the foundation of what becomes the deaconate. So we've really enjoyed spending some time because the deacons have been freshly ordained, you know, going into what are these guys doing? And of course, the example that you have in somebody like Philip, you know, when you get to chapter eight, the impact that they have that's just incalculable. So yeah, we we enjoyed watching that develop as well as we were going through the book of Acts.

David Nakhla: 24:07

So eventually the Lord provided deacons for your church. Can you talk about, again, putting yourself in the minds of other church planters? What are the events that led to that? And then how have would you say they revolutionized the life of the congregation? And maybe if you have some specific stories, that'd be fun to be.

Mark Winder: 24:25

Sure, yeah. At the time we organized, which was five years ago, I don't think there were deacon candidates ready to be trained formally. There were very young families, young children, just establishing their careers, their homes. You know, if you get out one of those stress point charts, you know, they would probably all score really high at stress points at that point in their life. But a couple of years go by and they're a little more settled now in their careers, time opens up for them a little bit more. But most importantly, I think, in terms of events leading up to that moment, being able to identify in the congregation people who are already deaconing, people who are already serving in that capacity. I mean, not formally, of course, but it came naturally. And you could see these are servants. So in a way, they begin to identify themselves. You know, 1 Peter 4, right, as each has received a gift, use it to serve one another. And you begin to see people in the congregation who are doing that, or after the manner of Hebrews 10, right, stirring up to love one another and stirring up others to good works. And as the church grew, we could see the ones who are engaged in that. And as the needs become more acute as the church grows and as the opportunities become more plentiful. And the session said, you know, now's the time. This has grown beyond us. I know the church isn't a business in a corporate sense, but it's kind of a somebody has a small business and you get to the point where you say, you know, I can handle this myself, I can handle this myself. And eventually you get to the point you say, I can't handle this myself and still do a good job. I need to hire somebody. I need help. And that's the point that we got to. So we took nominations, and there were 11 nominations, uh, which was very encouraging. And we went through deacon training. It took about six months. And I'd trained deacons previously in a church that I planted before, but I kind of reinvented the training program because in that time, so that was probably 20 years ago or so, maybe around there. Since then, the resources that, and I'm sure your your listeners are pointed to this all the time, right? OPCCDM.org, the resources that are on the diaconal website are just phenomenal. And we were able to utilize a lot of that, a lot of the videos that are on there, reading resources, books that are listed. Those things didn't exist as far as I can remember 20 years ago. And you know, I trained deacons before. So we totally revamped the deacon training program. And in the end, there were two outstanding men who were ordained as deacons. They're very busy men, but they gave up their time. And as I've often told our deacons, and I still tell them because I meet, you know, as often as I can when the deacons meet, I meet with them. You don't have to do everything. You just have to make sure everything gets done. So teaching them, encouraging them, identify servants, uh, develop gifts in other people, you know, anticipate, develop the next deacons who will come and join you. Delegation is a good word. Use it, do it. And then having them installed so that I think your next question is how they changed the life of the congregation. I don't think it's an overstatement when I said it revolutionized the life of our congregation. The congregation, in some sense, I think, has come alive, if you will. People know who to go to to get things done. You know, as a minister without deacons, and before when we were mission work for a decade, you know, people might come up to me after the service and say, Pastor, we need this. You know, if I don't write that down immediately, off it goes. I'm not going to remember that. But now they know who to go to to get things done. And because we're in a borrowed facility, they take care of all the facility needs, the cleaning schedule, setting up chairs, interfacing with the landlord, which is quite a job, checking into and securing insurance. The last Sunday of every month, they give a deacon's update to the congregation. They call it the Deacon's Dispatch. They came up with that name. I couldn't figure out what to call it. Originally I called it Deacon's Minute, and I didn't think that sounded very important. So I said, let's call it something else. And they came up with Deacon's Dispatch during the announcement time. They update the congregation on policies and on needs. And sometimes, just to be frank, I sit in amazement listening to the things that they're doing, many of which I don't even know about. They're doing them and then how well organized they are. And I'm thinking to myself, this is way beyond anything that I had dreamed. These guys, it took on a life of its own. And many, they've just taken it on. So I truly spend my Sunday morning in prayer and preparation because I know everything will be ready. I can devote myself to the ministry of the word and to prayer. So some of the specific things about the way they've impacted our church, there's several things I think they've done in identifying needs and putting programs in place where I think the session, as the session, we weren't fully aware that there might be needs that were there. I'll give you just a few examples. They developed a nursery policy for a nursery. And again, being in a borrowed facility, resources are kind of limited and space that we can use. So creating a designated space for nursing moms, providing activities. Activities and supervision for the kids, for children after the service. We have dozens of children. And what are they going to do? We don't have a playground. We're in this, again, borrowed space. So they've arranged for games in the back parking lot or activities in the fellowship hall. Well. They created a security policy designating, you know, individuals who can be a part of that, making sure the doors are locked after the service starts that the back door is locked. They created a background check policy for those who work directly with children. We're desperately looking for a new meeting place. And so they're organizing a spreadsheet of contacts for a building search. They're organizing a rotation of families that can practice hospitality and provide an invitation, you know, for visitors. One gentleman in our congregation, very much loved guy, lost his wife a year ago to cancer. And, you know, this year, the deacons, without any suggestion from us, they took that on and wanted to make sure that somebody visited him on the anniversary of his wife's death. And I had already planned to do that, so you know, that was taken care of. But they took the next step and asked folks in the congregation to sign a card for him so that when I met him for dinner, I could give it to him. The work on the budget, you know, obviously so helpful. At our mid-year congregational meeting, the deacons just took it over, handled all of that. It's so much better to hear that from a deacon than even an elder or a minister. They're in charge of the men's fellowship and the men's study group, and they had a meeting of the men just recently, took them into different groups and asked, you know, what kind of fellowship or activity would or study would be most useful. They conducted an online poll, you know, to find out the best times. They're in charge of work days and maintenance issues. And again, we have a new landlord, and the deacons have handled everything with him with professionalism, with courtesy, with patience. Amazes me. They put together a library. And again, we have just a very small space, but found somebody to be the librarian and organize it. The kids love that. And I think they've taken over the fellowship meal. I haven't asked, but it seems like they have. Because when I show up for the fellowship meal, they open it up in prayer. They just do that. And if I never show up, and this is the beauty of it, if I never show, if I just drop dead tomorrow, everything would just run the way it's supposed to run. Everything would be the way it should be. They have set up greeters at the front door of the church to hand out bulletins and to greet visitors. So in short, the church is functioning the way it should function. And again, in large part, I mean, this is because the deacons have taken this on in a way that really exceeds what I thought they'd be able to do. So in fact, sometimes in the deacons' meeting, I just say, hey, you don't have to do everything. I mean, they're so they're young, they're energetic, and all that, which is just wonderful. But I don't see in them burnout either. Sometimes people tackle things with enthusiasm and then they get sick of it, and so they burn out after a year. I don't see that in them either. I think they're wise, they've paced themselves, and they've been very effective. They've accomplished a lot in one year as deacons. They just had their first anniversary.

David Nakhla: 33:25

Wow. They've kind of set the bar pretty high. Yeah, that's really great. Whoa, beautiful. And also it's very interesting to think about how I think a lot of times deacons are kind of working, you know, behind the scenes, a lot of it in very appropriately visible ways, leading the congregation service. I love that. And demonstrating that and encouraging others to serve. Wow. Look forward to hearing more about that developing story over the years. Yeah, it's exciting to see them at work.

Mark Winder: 33:56

And the congregation really gets it. They love it. We're teaching through the Book of Church Order on Wednesday nights. And so as we are going through the book, they see the need for and the advantage of order in the church and the structure that the Lord has laid out in having deacons. And let me tell you a big compliment I got a few weeks ago. Somebody in the congregation asked me a question about when such and such was going on in the church, and I didn't know. So I'm not sure when you know they're doing that. And then they asked me another question, and maybe I sound like I'm out of touch, but I said, I'm not sure when we're doing that either. And and they said to me, You're not really a micromanager, are you? And I said, Well, no, I'm not. I don't have to be anymore. Again, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm kind of out of touch, but it's one of those things that they've taken on these things so that truly I can be concerned about the ministry of the word and prayer and shepherding the flock and loving God's people, but I don't have to be in everything because they've done that so well. So I I consider that lack of micromanagement to be a compliment. Because I that's not always been the case.

David Nakhla: 35:13

Yeah. Has your wife noticed the difference in the workload that you have?

Mark Winder: 35:17

I think so. I guess we haven't technically talked about it, but maybe just I'm a little more relaxed, a little less worried about everything getting done because I know that there are people who are doing it. Yeah. And there are times when somebody will be in the hospital, I won't even know until after they're home. And it's not because they don't want to tell me, it's because they know who they can tell. And of course, we also have a shepherding list and elders who shepherd families and things of that nature. So that helps. So it's much more organized than it used to be.

David Nakhla: 35:48

Yeah, that's really, really encouraging. I remember when you were putting together your training material, it was encouraging to see that you were, as you even mentioned, you were using some of the podcasts as part of your training material. Can you remember any of those episodes and share some of those episodes that maybe that come to mind as part of your training material?

Mark Winder: 36:08

Yeah, I did have several required videos on the syllabus. There were five videos that I required for deacon training. Watch these and we'll discuss them. The Achnal Leadership Today with Bill Shishko, The Deacon in His Congregation with Craig Troxel, Mercy Ministry in a Social Justice World, Eric Watkins, Ministry to the Spiritually Immature, Nathan Trice, and Doing Business as Deacons, Chris Sudlow. And I'm assuming those are still all available on the website. But those were the five videos that I required. And then we had a couple others that we went through. And there was also scenarios or real-world cases. Yeah, yeah, the right. And we went through some of the case studies and how would you handle the situation and and so on. And of course, I gave them the link for all of the diaconal ministry training videos that are there. I uh so many rich resources and so many of the articles that are there as well that they found very helpful. And they were great discussion points. The way that I like to teach, whether it's profession of faith classes or training elders or training deacons, is you know, I don't mind talking a little bit, but I really prefer answering questions and laying out in front of somebody a discussion or an article or a video and saying, let's watch this and let's discuss this thing. What questions do you have about that? Because then I'm really focusing my teaching on their need. And of course, there's times where I'll just deliver a lecture, you know, kind of a thing. But those training videos are extremely helpful.

David Nakhla: 37:41

Yeah, good, good, good. Yeah, those are all those videos that Mark was mentioning are from our previous National Diaconal Summit in 2022. We'll put it in here a little plug for our next one is June 25 to 27, 2026. And be sure to have your deacons there. We'll have another great slate of speakers. But all those talks from our previous summits and even this, especially this last summit, are all available on our on our website, opccdm.org. And and we're glad to see them used. And also, even Mark, your kind of your syllabus that you put together. I think we have that either posted somewhere on our website or we can make that available. If you want to plagiarize Mark's training, I'm sure he'd be happy to have you do that.

Mark Winder: 38:29

Please do if it's helpful.

David Nakhla: 38:30

Yeah. So, Mark, this is a little bit of a tangential, but I gotta bring it up because you're thinking about lots of things in that conversation around the fire pit. I wanted to hear again when we talked, you explained you began something you called the five committees and the four P's. What are those again? And sure. How did those shift?

Mark Winder: 38:52

Well, a little bit of background, if you don't mind. One of the things that got my attention when you were speaking, when you were talking to the church planters there at the training conference, is the fact that this really kind of struck me. We give mission works overseeing sessions, but we don't give them overseeing deacons. So how do we compensate for that? You know, as I mentioned earlier, if the communion of saints is enhanced, or even if it's effected by people serving, how do you facilitate that in a congregation? And one of the sections of the book, Planning an Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which you can find on the Chemkey website, one of the sections of that book is entitled Develop Ministries of Mercy and Concern. And that section notes the fact that a mission work has a tremendous opportunity to demonstrate Christ's compassion, right? We identify needs in the community, everything from homelessness to taking care of the elderly, but how do you do that? And organizing that effort would be an overseeing session who is often at a distance, along with an organizing pastor who is in some cases, this may be his first call. I mean, he's got irons everywhere in the fire. And quite a bit can fall between the cracks. So I really wrestled with how do you facilitate this? And early on in our church plant here, I proposed that we appoint what I called acting deacons, people who would act the part, right? Take on some of the responsibilities, kind of like a committee. And the session didn't want to designate that. Understandably, you know, they thought the word acting deacons would be confusing to people. So we just let the matter drop, which I think is unfortunate. And I should have worked maybe a little harder to come up with another way to get to it. And in church plants that I work with, and frankly, in other churches that I planted, I really wrestled with that question how do you facilitate this? Ministries of mercies and concern. So in another comment that you made, you referred to, and maybe you just did this in passing, but it was like a giant neon flashing sign in my brain. You referred to a mercy committee. And don't ask me why, after two decades, I didn't come up with something that is frankly just that simple, but that well, brilliant. It's a mercy committee. And maybe it's only a matter of semantics, but call it a mercy committee then. Identify some folks in the congregation who are willing to serve, and then put together a committee who can facilitate that. And in doing that, you are identifying individuals who eventually, when the church organized, may be fully and formally trained and stand for election as deacons. That can be part of their training. As you know, when you have a deacon board already in place, one of the best ways to bring along other deacons is to have basically deacon internships, right? Um come join us and be a deacon, small D, you know, for a while and come along. And so the Mercy Committee, yeah, no kidding. And it's like, well, it was one of those no dumb moments. And it's like, that's what we need to do. So specifically the five committees, you know, that's something that we put in place in a church that our church is planting. So we're planting a daughter church about an hour and 15 minutes north of us. In fact, if I can plug it just a minute, if you're listening to us and you're looking for a good church in the Jackson, Tennessee area, Providence Presbyterian Church is a mission work there. And we're also, by the way, looking for an evangelist to go there too. So anyway, consider that. But we put in place there in Providence and Jackson four committees. And this is something that I plan to develop more fully, though I'm just, this is something we've begun with, but I want to develop these further for perhaps other church plants. And each of these committees will change over time a little bit. And when a church planter arrives, it will take on a different form. We have what's called a pulpit supply committee that will probably go away, you know, when a church planter comes. But these committees will still continue to perform a function and that makes it easier for the evangelist because there's a structure in place. It also helps him not to have to micromanage every detail, and also it gives people a place to serve and be part of the congregation. When somebody has ownership in the congregation in the service of the congregation, they become a vital part of it. And they're also, by the way, more likely to stay. But the four committees we put in place were a building committee, a finance committee, pulpit supply committee, and an outreach committee. And the building committee does just what it sounds like. They had defined a building, they're in charge of who cleans, who sets up chairs, hymnals, you know, all that kind of stuff. Finance committee was in charge of everything from, you know, the initial, you know, bylaws, incorporating, setting a budget, or at least, you know, having a recommended budget. Of course, the overseeing session is overseeing all this. The procedures for counting money, making deposits, opening bank accounts, all that good stuff. Pulpit supply committee. This is before you have an organizing pastor, and this is finding folks who do pulpit supply. And the session obviously approves those who are going to be doing the pulpit supply, but they would keep the schedule of that. I would probably call it a scheduling committee in the future rather than pulpit supply committee. And then an outreach committee, which should be fairly obvious, right? The church needs to be engaged in reaching out into the community even before a church planner arrives. So ordering materials, the OPC, we have tons of great little tracks that you can order, wonderful brochures, going out of the neighborhoods, promoting the church, ordering signage, things like that. And those four committees then report to a liaison that meets with the overseeing session because, again, there's no organizing pastor yet. And in this case, of course, it's the session of Wolf River Presbyterian Church. And we can see the work in progress then of each of those four committees. So just about anything that needs to be done in the church can be designated to one of those four committees. And again, I'm I'm working on developing that more fully. And so far it's working very well. Our overseeing session isn't overtaxed because needs are assigned, tasks are assigned to one of those committees. But at our last session meeting, I asked the liaison about forming a mercy committee. That's the one element that was missing is the mercy committee. None of those other committees really would address that. Building finance schedule and outreach. Outreach maybe, but where's the mercy committee? So I hope to see that as well in the mission work.

David Nakhla: 45:38

Just to give credit where credit's due, the mercy committee was now my, I did not dub that. I first heard that used in our Karamoja station of our Uganda mission before having ordained deacons, which they're still hoping and praying about, but they did have significant need to carry out mercy. And so they actually had established a mercy committee as a stopgap measure till such time as the Lord would raise up deacons in their midst. So that's great. And then you said something about the four P's. What are the four P's?

Mark Winder: 46:10

Yeah, and that's something that came out of originally something I gave to our diaconate to these two new deacons when, you know, the first meeting of the deacons, you know, I gave them their original agenda. You know, here's an agenda for a deacon's meeting. Take it and run with us. You know, do whatever you want with it. It needs to be changed, but here's a template you can start with. And they've kept the basic outline. And so I broke down their work into four categories: people, programs, policies, and place. And again, maybe somewhat obvious. Uh, first of all, people, right? The needs of the people in the congregation and even outside of the congregation. Specific people, what are their needs? And so they still have this list on their agenda: people who are named and how are we meeting their needs? Are there expectant mothers in the congregation? Are there those who are undergoing hardship or whatever? Those who are sick, are they being visited, and things of that nature? And so that's people programs. You know, what programs would facilitate fellowship and activity in our church? The men's study, the ladies' study, fellowship activities, things of that nature, you know, activities for the kids. And then policies, you know, I mentioned a little bit earlier, the nursery, you know, policies for the nursery, policies for security, you know, who's in charge of doing this, locking doors, you know, cleaning up and things like that. And then place. And of course, place is anything that's building related. Um, work days, connecting with the landlord, fixing things. And so they go through each of these categories, and pretty much anything will fit into people, programs, policies, or place. And they've kept that outline in their agenda and they've changed the agenda, made it better because they're the ones doing the work. But those basic four categories, I think, have been helpful.

David Nakhla: 47:55

Mark, we need a little write-up from you on the four piece. We need that on our website. I love that. I think that would resonate well with any deacon to help them organize their slate. That's awesome.

Mark Winder: 48:08

Well, I will get in conjunction with the deacons. Yeah, good. And they may end up writing it.

David Nakhla: 48:13

Yeah, sure. Any thoughts on how we as a denomination, or maybe Presbytery for that matter, might highlight the value and importance of the role of deacons in the health of the church, even as you reflect on it? It sounds like almost an epiphany in the last couple of years, having many years in church planting, and it sounds like your church was very healthy, B D before deacons, uh, but now AD after deacons, it sounds like a light's gone on. And do you have thoughts on how you know we could continue to highlight that, what you've even experienced?

Mark Winder: 48:47

Yeah, you know, there are so many resources now compared to what there were 15 or 20 years ago on the OPC website, on the diaconal website. And as I was thinking about what I was going to talk about as we were doing this, I was thinking how helpful it would be if there was a very straightforward, easy way to get information about signing up for short-term missions and disaster response. And then as I was thinking about that, I got an email with the disaster response video on Hurricane Helene. And there it is, right in my face. So I would encourage any of your listeners, search for that email in your inbox if you haven't saved it. It's from September 25th. Download the video to show in your Sunday school, follow the links to the discussion guide, use that in your churches. We're planning to do that here at Wolf River on the 26th of October. And it's the information that needs to be put in front of people. I mean, we live in the world of TikTok and YouTube, and there's so much information in one eye and out the other nowadays, just so fast that presenting this, putting this in front of the congregations, and you provide those things with regular short-term missions, disaster response updates. And now we have a good video to show. I don't know how in the world you do all the things you do, but your communication has been excellent. You readily send out emails, produce bulletin inserts. We had one in our bulletin just this past week of the short-term missions bulletin insert. If folks haven't downloaded, they're really well done bulletin inserts. The way that you have them is they're printed two to a page, front and back, so you can just print them off and stick them in the bulletins. And you also have a sheet that you handed to our church planters at the training conference entitled OPC Diaconal Resources for Church Planters. And it's not just for church planters. Any listeners here, I mean, ask for this sheet. I'm sure you wouldn't mind sending it. It's on one sheet of paper. All of the, maybe not even all of them, but many of the resources for church planters. Utilize those things. You even have QR codes on there. You can point your phone and be connected. And then several ways that your church can be connected. And I'll be using that as well to connect our church in a more meaningful way. So look for those things, find those things.

David Nakhla: 51:11

They're there. Well, thank you for that. So glad that Trish is lurking in the background is our producer, our communications coordinator who really makes all these communication vehicles happen. She does such a great job. And so we're thankful for her service. And I'm sure it's encouraging for her to hear that these are appreciated and are being used. Thanks for that plug for that email. Many of you will not have received that email because it actually went to ministers and elders. And so you can ask your pastor or one of your elders if they received it and if that's something that could be used in your church. You can know that that's out there. That's something we we don't do that often with regards to making, it's almost curriculumized, I guess you could say. But that was a unique opportunity. And thank you for that plug, Mark. Anything more you'd like to add on this important topic while we have the attention of our listeners?

Mark Winder: 52:02

Well, just to say this, you don't need to wait to have deacons in order to serve, or even in order to begin training people to serve. Go back to that passage in Ephesians. Ephesians is emphasizing as a whole Christ's riches being received by all the saints. And verse 7 of chapter 4 says, Each member was given grace. And then in verse 16, Paul says, Each one does his part. So in verse 12, the pastor evangelists, they're training each one to do that part of service. So the task of special ministers, you know, that are mentioned in Ephesians 4.11, is to be servants in that ministry which is entrusted to the whole church. So you don't need to wait to have deacons to serve or begin training people to serve. And if you have deacons in the church, if you are deacons, develop other deacons, other servants. And if you have deacons, look to them for ways to serve. And don't wait to do it. I remember back in, I think it was 2020, you had sent, I don't remember the details of this, a program or something where you encouraged folks to have a breakfast, kind of host a breakfast, show this video kind of thing, get people involved. And then COVID hit. We had scheduled a date to do that, and we ended up canceling that planned breakfast. But this is something that you don't have to have a program to do. There's enough resources out there that you can begin to be involved. So thank you for this and also for being willing to listen to my enthusiasm about it as we were gathered around the fire pit and sitting at that lunch table. I appreciate your ministry, the work that you've been doing, making so many resources available to our churches.

David Nakhla: 53:50

Well, thank you, Mark. It's a great way to end. If you enjoyed listening to Mark's insights and hearing his clear thinking on these and other matters, again, you can listen to him more at the Proclaiming Christ podcast. Find that through the Reform Forum's website. And so thank you, Mark. Thank you. And just really been encouraging to hear how the Lord's been faithful in raising up officers, his time for Wolf River OPC. Deacons, we hope this episode is helpful to you and your ministry to your local church. As always, reach out if you have any questions or suggestions. We actually have an email for this podcast where we'd love to hear your questions, your interactions with the things that we bring to you. That email is mail, M-A-I-L at thereformdeacon.org. Mail at thereformdeacon.org. Thanks so much for joining us. Special word of thanks to our producer, Trish Dugan, who works faithfully behind the scenes to bring this podcast to you. Be sure to visit our website, thereformdeacon.org, where you'll find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And we hope you'll join us again soon for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.