Clip from Episode

Tim Hopper 0:00

I served for a while on a deconet of two, and you do have this scenario where there's not a majority vote if you disagree, but where these deacons can learn mutual submission to one another. And sometimes you say, you know what? I don't know if I think that's the best thing, but I respect my brother and I've heard his arguments. And hopefully for the well-being of this couple, for the unity of our church, for the unity of our diaconate, I'm just going to submit to him, even if it's not exactly what I think.

David Nakhla 0:28

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Tim Hopper 0:47

Hi, this is Tim Hopper, a member of the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. On today's episode of The Reformed Deacon, we're doing another real-world cases discussion with Mr. Jared Grigg, who's a deacon at Acacia Reform Church in Manassas, Virginia. Hello, Jared. Good to be here. And Ray Pellerin, a deacon at Merrimack Valley OPC in North Andover, Massachusetts. Welcome, Ray.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Thank you from Snow Country.

Chronic Giving Shortfalls And Teaching

Tim Hopper 1:11

Thank you, brothers, for joining this discussion. Before we start, I want to quickly thank our listeners for their comments and for suggesting some of the new real-world cases. Your feedback really helps to build our content, so please keep it coming. You can send your comments or suggested scenarios to mail at thereformeddeacon.org. All right, let's get started. Case one. It's the end of the month, and as both a deacon and the church treasurer, you are paying the church's bills. As you enter the payment amounts into your bank's website, your eyes are drawn to the low balance on the screen. And it doesn't surprise you. The church is consistently behind in giving. You know the pattern well. One third of the congregation gives generously, one third gives at or below their means, and one third gives little or nothing at all. Gentle reminders have been placed in the bulletin and mentioned from the pulpit, but there has been no noticeable change. The budget is published regularly, and several faithful givers have expressed concern about the ongoing deficit. What additional steps, if any, can be taken to encourage giving without causing offense? Jared, have you seen this happen in churches you've been part of? And any steps that you've seen be able to help here?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

I haven't seen this particular situation, but I would say we do have a biblical mandate to help the local church, particularly when we're a part of it. And so we're all called to give to some degree. I think first of all, I'd say I wouldn't be as concerned with worrying about offending. I would say that being a deacon, you know, we're a facilitator of mercy ministry inside the church. And so particularly if we're running budgets and numbers and things like that, uh, you know, we're we're kind of in it together. And so if we've called a pastor, if we have obligations for a building for maintenance and things like that, I mean, we're Presbyterians. I mean, everything that we do, we have a committee meeting, we have a board, we have all this stuff. And so people know the numbers. And so I would say if we've committed to do this thing, I mean, there is going to be to some degree, you know, we're called to give out a proportion of what we have. And so I think I would just encourage people, particularly heads of households, encouraging them to give where they can. And then maybe if there's some things where this may be going a little bit further out, possibly, but uh, you know, I know at Sterling we ran a Dave Ramsey course. That kind of helped a lot of people and helped me particularly to prioritize, you know, how I'm spending my money, because I would say it kind of goes back to the 10%. I mean, Abraham gave a 10%. And so I think the spirit of the 10% in the the New Testament church is is still in play today. And so where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. I would just encourage people, you know, where they're at and being honest with them because God's grace, you know, it's tangible too. It's not just spiritual.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

I agree, Jerry, with that, especially I don't think anybody should ever be offended as a Christian about giving. My concern is and has been I just don't believe we preach, at least in our church, we don't preach enough or teach enough about giving and the what the tremendous blessing that it is. If you look at it from a biblical standpoint, we are required to give, to give cheerfully, and it should be a priority. And I've been the treasurer for almost 20 years at Merrimack Valley Church. So, you know, I've seen it, I I see the inside's workings, I see some families that are extremely generous, and others that, you know, there's nothing, just like the scenario says. Actually, we're in the process of implementing an online giving option because the younger generation, they don't even carry checkbooks. So they want to Venmo your their money to to some to anybody. We don't have that option available right now, but we're we're close. Probably by the end of the month, we should have that available to us. So it's gonna open up a door, but uh again, it goes back to what w what are we teaching our parishioners? Are are we teaching them that they're missing out on a blessing, that it's part of worship? God owns 100% of everything that we have. Not only our health, our families, our homes, our income. He's only asking for a small percentage back. To me, the tithing continues into the New Testament as a benchmark. If you can give more, great. But there's a blessing associated with that. And once you understand that, I think it changes the mindset of people because I know it did to me. I've been coming to Merrimack Valley Church for 31 years, and it didn't take long once I started learning reform theology and what the Bible teaches for me to convert from being in in a Catholic church where I'm giving five or ten dollars a week to now I'm giving what I should be giving. And I also agree that we should be giving from a gross earnings, not the net. And again, that comes down to priority. You know, what are you prioritizing? You're prioritizing that you are grateful for what God has given you and he's only asking for a small percentage back. The rest of it is okay, what's the priority in your life? Is it to buy nice cars? Is it to buy this and that, which nobody's against? But if it's gonna deter from you blessing your church in that way, then then it gets in the way.

Tim Hopper 6:38

I think one of the difficult things here, at times at least for pastors, it's it's a difficult topic to preach on when they know that in no small part the giving is going to pay their salary, and I think they can feel awkward about that. But you know, extending that, Ray, as a treasurer, how much do you think about this topic of giving as a diagonal issue or the sessions issue or maybe a combination?

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah, that's a great question because I struggle personally. I struggle with is it my place as a deacon, not just a treasure, but it more as a deacon to inform families that maybe aren't doing what they should be doing, and teaching them, well, maybe on a one-on-one or as as a couple deacons meeting with the family and just opening it up for discussion. And and I struggle with that. You know, it's like, is that really my place? It's between the parishioner and God, ultimately, right? That relationship. So that is a difficulty for me. It's a struggle for me.

Tim Hopper 7:43

It seems I know some churches do diaconal and session visitation together. It's not something that my church was was ever able to pull off just for logistical reasons, but it seems like that would be a great opportunity if if you do that or something to consider doing to just to be able to talk with folks one-on-one.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Yeah. And I don't know if there's other churches where the deacons are uh maybe doing that, that they're part of a discussion when they're visiting with the family.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I was just gonna say, just to add two things to that. One thing that acacia is starting to do. Now it's a young session as far as how long we've been getting after it, and then it's a young diaconate as well. And so one of the things that we're doing is we're trying to work together in that same light. Because I think historically there's been pastoral visits that, you know, elders will do, and then they got their groups. But I do like the perspective of having a deacon there to kind of look at, you know, what does this look like financially? Like how can we step in in a way and help serve tables because we are facilitators of mercy ministry. And so I think there's some things that we can help elders and take off their plates. And so we're starting to try to do that at acacia. The second thing that I was gonna say on this one, I think sometimes in the reform world, we can be a little uneasy about the blessings that come from tithing because we're trying so hard to push back against false gospel assertions of health and wealth and all these other things. And I think that's one thing too. Like, we need to encourage our people. Like, no, God does have a blessing for you. It may not be financial, but providentially, it is better to give than receive. And so a lot of times I think when we give, even to a certain point where it's maybe when giving hurts, right? God does give back to us in that way. And I think we need to reaffirm our people. Like, listen, I understand that sometimes it can be painful when it's like, man, I don't know where this is coming from, but I own a small business. And so this has been like really, God has taught me so many things to trust him. Like, there's been so many times where it's like, I don't know where payroll is going to come from. And I'm working hard. I'm not just throwing up my hands, right? But I'm like, no, I'm gonna keep doing the next right thing. And then God comes through every time. And that's what he does for his people. We need to reaffirm people in our pews that, like, yes, God is faithful in everything that he does.

Work For Aid Programs And Pitfalls

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100% with that, Jared.

Tim Hopper 10:08

Amen. Thank you, Jared. Let's move on to case two. Longtime members of your church, Bill and Annie, showed up at the church one Tuesday evening just as the two deacons were finishing up a meeting. Bill did most of the talking. They were behind on their bills and they need some financial help. Instead of asking for a handout or for the deacons to pay some of their bills, Bill asked if he and Annie could do some small maintenance projects around the church building in exchange for financial aid. Bill was a maintenance man at a local high school, and Annie was a stay-at-home mom caring for their two teenage children. The deacons decide to go ahead with the plan and feel it has worked well in this and one other diaconal situation. It seems to have preserved a sense of dignity for Bill and Annie. The deacons are now considering expanding this model to include helping with other diaconal matters, such as assisting an elderly couple with their practical needs and taking a chronically ill young man to his weekly treatment. What do you think about this work program? Are there any potential pitfalls? Do you have any experience with this type of program? Ray, what's your initial reaction here?

SPEAKER_03 11:09

My initial reaction is we're in the ministry, as Jared was saying, diaconal ministry of mercy, and to help alleviate poverty. So what there's a true need, I feel it's important for us to alleviate that poverty as much as possible so the family can concentrate on worship and praising God for what they get. I don't go along with that it never ends. So if there's a temporary response to help, whether it's a month or three months or something like that, and try to get them, help them get back on their feet or whatever the issue is, that's the avenue I would like to pursue.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

I think I would tend to agree with that. I think in this particular uh situation, I think it needs to be intentional, but I don't think it needs to be a precedent. Right. The church isn't an employer for people, it's a body collectively of believers from different walks of life or whatever, but we're not employers, and so we have to take that into consideration. But I also think in this particular case, I feel strong about Bill and Ann that they're able to kind of use their gifts. And because they came forward, I think it's good for them because we need to be helping people understand their gifts. And they obviously have some gifts that the church can use. And then can we can we help them for a short period of time, like Ray was saying? Yeah, I think that's fine. But I think there has to be an intentional end date of okay, what's gonna happen next? Because we can't be long-term. We're not employers, right? We're facilitators of mercy ministry.

Tim Hopper 12:44

Another aspect of that is their potential labor law requirements and tax implications and and things here that you can't necessarily just employ someone to write a check. You might need insurance, you might need to be doing taxes or 1099 in the US. Uh there are a lot of additional complications that are easy to overlook.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Yeah. No, and I agree with that, Tim. It's you know, you wouldn't want somebody to say, oh yeah, we need some roof repair and get up on the roof and you know, and somebody gets hurt, right? And you're not you're not covered for that. But you know, the little things around, whether it's cleaning up after a worship service, you know, for us it's this time of year, you're tracking in all kinds of of salt, muddy, you know, wet, you know, the floors get filthy during a worship service, and you know, somebody needs to clean that. At this point, we we still rent a uh cafeteria space in a local public school. We've been doing that for like 35 years. We've got a decent amount of savings for a building fund. We actually own a piece of land outright, but since COVID, the cost to build has just been crazy, and we're just we're not at that point. So we also don't have that opportunity for someone to say, well, what can I do for the church? Well, we don't have a church building yet, so there's not much that you can do there.

Tim Hopper 13:59

Does anything come to mind is what are alternatives to this? I mean, so one option is just providing diaconal funds, which may be what needs to be done here. Any other alternatives come to mind?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

We've actually had in my tenure is I've had a couple situations where people, not necessarily members per se, but people would come in on the outside and say, you know, my rent's due, whatever, this and that. And they would say, well, we can work for you. And one of the things that we tried to do in that situation is reaffirm the fact that this isn't a tit-for-tat thing. Like if we decide as a diaconate, as a church, to give you financial assistance for your rent or for whatever you that you need, this is a gift from the Lord. We're not called as deacons to be loan officers. We're not. There may be certain situations where like maybe we could help, but our primary calling is to be the tangible hands and feet of Christ to his people first and then to people on the outsides of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

And I I agree with that, Jared, too. We've had one instance in the last couple of years where a young couple came to us for some assistance, and it was an ongoing thing. And it was like, well, have you approached anybody in your family? So you really have to pose that option to them. Have they considered, you know, it's one thing if they don't have any family around, or if they don't have a relationship with their family, but if they do have a good relationship, it's no, it's really not the church's responsibility to provide something for you that your family can help you with initially. And I think that's from that's a biblical standpoint. Yes, agree.

Helping A Young Couple Without Enabling

Tim Hopper 15:37

Very good. I think also just thinking about helping find work outside, maybe work for someone in the church at times, that that can be a good thing. Or but there are other opportunities to help someone find work besides necessarily just at the church. As we move on to question three, we're also joined by Lynn Hunter, a deacon at Harvest OPC in Wyoming, Michigan, who you probably know from the real world cases discussions. Welcome, Lynn. Thank you, Ian. I'm sorry I'm late. Thanks for joining us. Let's move on to case three. Ellen and John, members of your church, were recently married. John is still finishing school. Ellen, who recently graduated with a degree in marketing, is currently working as a waitress while looking for a job in her field. Last week, John approached one of the deacons to ask for help covering their rent for the next few months. He admitted that a few months of assistance may not be enough, but felt hesitant to ask for more. John also shared his concern that Ellen may be limiting her job search by waiting for what she believes to be the perfect position rather than seeking a job that could more quickly help relieve their financial strain. He noted that they are without health insurance since Ellen's current job does not provide it. There are currently two deacons at the church. One believes that it would be wise to offer temporary financial assistance while Ellen continues to search for a position in her field. The other believes the couple should be encouraged to pursue employment immediately and has even offered to help Ellen in that process. Neither approach seems unreasonable or wrong per se, but the deacons don't agree. How do you move forward when deacons see the case differently and what resolution should they suggest to this couple? Lynn, any initial reactions here or uh a perspective that you prefer?

SPEAKER_04 17:15

I am always on the let's help and get involved and then start pursuing other options, especially if in our family in the church.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that, Lynn, too. You have to sit down with the family and have an open and honest discussion. Talk about plan A and a plan D. So if the church is available to help for the first three months, what's the plan B if you're in the same situation after three months, right? So they really have to give some serious thought to that. But also what is their goal? What is their plan to move forward? They both have to be on the same page.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, I think I probably would agree with that. You know, this is a young man. I think maybe the tough love side of that, together they need to learn how to do things as a married couple. And life's hard. If you've been married for anywhere toward of three years or more, uh, you know that and you go through financial struggles and you you need to learn to work together. And so one of the things that I, and maybe I would have been a little bit softer on this earlier on, but uh I would encourage them to keep moving forward. I want to help in ways that we're able to help if we can, but I don't want to be a crutch to them, particularly for him as a man, to not use this opportunity to build resilience in his own ability to provide for his family and then let them work together, right? And then pray for them. I think that's the biggest thing that we can do. Now, I'm not saying, you know, if they ask for uh a fish, give them a scorpion. If they're hurting, like let's help them out. But there's a real temporal, like, hey man, this is your job to provide for your family. It's hard. I understand. You can do it. You know, so I would be very cautious on, you know, trying to, particularly a young man, right? This is a young guy, he's fresh, you know, he needs to be getting after it. And listen, you may not enjoy your work wiping floors or whatever it is, but you got to do what you got to do. So that's what I would encourage him to do.

Tim Hopper 19:23

Jared, uh, in this case, John isn't even working. He's in school, which maybe you're getting about it. I but I think that's something worth not overlooking is hey, maybe he needs to get a job and work for six hours every night, or maybe he needs to slow down his schooling so he can do a job on the side.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Yeah, and and I think that's part of the having the open, honest discussion. It's like, okay, maybe you put school on the back burner for a little while. Get a job, provide for your family. Don't put the onus responsibility solely on your wife for working and trying to get benefits. It's like, and like Jared said, you know, it's tough. It's tough love. And if you're a young man, it's like you got to do what you got to do. And there's school you could always go back to.

Tim Hopper 20:06

I want to jump back to what Lynn said initially. I think it's worth drawing out a little more. Lynn, you said for church members, your initial response is to help and then sort of open the can of worms a little more. Can you explain more what you mean there?

SPEAKER_04 20:21

Well, if I just say no, what have I done? I haven't created any opening for me to get into this whole family and to create some dialogue. Whereas if I come and I say yes, but now I have created a dialogue. And so when I say yes, but we're gonna come alongside you and we're gonna want to explore some more options over the next month, and we're gonna keep up with you so that we're not into the same situation. Now I could talk to the husband and wife together to get a better understanding of what's happening. And then I can come with the next approaches hey John, can you uh think about getting a job? Can you think about getting a part-time job? Reading at Walmart, working at Home Depot. And then we can also talk to Ellen and say, Ellen, what is the holdup? Maybe you're shooting for this job that's not available, or maybe hey, this is the company that got a job, the job you want is also in that company, but to get your foot in the door. So it allows me the opening to get more established with the family so that we can provide more advice and let them trust us in helping them.

Tim Hopper 21:32

Yeah, I really agree with that, and that would be my preference. If we take a couple steps back in this scenario, the issues, not just John and Ellen, but there are two deacons at this church and they're disagreeing as to how to handle the scenario. So one is wanting to do more what Lynn is saying, and the other is not wanting to So now we're gonna fall back on the book of church order.

SPEAKER_04 21:54

And what is the ruling principle in the book of church order? That the elders overshoot. See what the deacons do. They don't tell the deacons what to do, but they oversee. So at that point, I get the elder, and I'm hoping that this church has it divided up, and there's more than one elder, but that we get the elder of the couple involved, and we sit down with him, he knowing the couple, but he also being involved in the care of this couple, and we see what his preference would be.

Tim Hopper 22:24

I think that is a very uh good solution, but I think there's another possible solution, which is the deacons need to re-evaluate their own stance towards one another. I serve for a while on a diaconate of two, and you do have the scenario where there's not a majority vote if you disagree, but where these deacons can learn mutual submission to one another. And sometimes you say, you know what? I don't know if I think that's the best thing, but I respect my brother and I've heard his arguments. And hopefully for the well-being of this couple, for the unity of our church, for the unity of our diaconate, I'm just going to submit to him, even if it's not exactly what I think, is another possibility. And I don't think it's necessarily contrary to Lin's. Jared, any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, so I've had this exact situation almost. So I was on a deacon board in the past, and there was uh, I think we had five deacons, maybe four, I can't remember exactly. But uh we we had a pretty sharp disagreement about a situation like this. And uh, you know, half of us were like, no, we think we should do this. The other half was like, well, we think we should do this. And we had real live conversations and real disagreements about it. And then we had an older elder who passed a couple years ago, and you know, I was close with him. He was a mentor for me, and so I caught him. He wasn't at the deacons' meeting. I said, Hey man, here's the situation. This is what I think. And I gave him my position, I gave him the position of the other side. I said, What do you think we should do? And he landed on the opposite side that I was on. More of the deacons agreed, and so for me, it was an opportunity to say, you know what, I don't necessarily agree with this, but what I did sign up for was mutual submission, like you're saying, Tim. And so it was an opportunity for me to say, you know what, I don't agree, but I'm gonna submit to my brothers here and practice Presbyterianism, uh, if you will. And I'm telling you, that situation, although it was painful in the moment, what it really did for us as a diaconate was it made us stronger. It made us more resilient to say, okay, we can have real-world disagreements, but if we're not talking to each other about it, that's the problem. So I think this is a great opportunity to come together. Whereas the enemy would would use it for bad, God uses it for good in many cases.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Yeah, I agree 100% with that. And our session, and I'm sure many sessions, they follow that same principle. When they meet on a monthly or whatever basis, there might be some disagreements, but at the end of the evening, they made a decision, and everybody's gonna submit to that decision and agree. So as deacons, I agree with you 100%. You know, we need to be on the same page. It'd be helpful to be on the same page before you meet with the family, but even during the visit, there's gonna be some different options that are gonna pop up and and each one's gonna say, you know what? Yeah, now I can see I can see your side of it. I can I can agree with that.

Tim Hopper 25:17

And also then consider the possibility of coming up with some kind of compromise solution between the two of you. May maybe meet in the middle. There are other options here, then and it's I think there are very few hills that are the ones that die on in these kind of things when there's not often just a clear-cut answer. And it's wise for deacons to come to those humbly and and really listen to their brothers and and appreciate their brothers even when they disagree. Which I I imagine we've all seen is the blessing of having a plurality of of deacons and officers. We might go into a meeting with one belief and then you have the discussion, and then you come out realizing your brother had it right, uh, which is a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

Yes, it is.

Tim Hopper 26:01

One other possibility that our church year, not to the disagreement, but to the couple that our church has done at times is encourage and even help pay for young couples to do financial peace university or another type of family personal finance class. It's a really great time in their life to get to do that. And I always tell people I, you know, I don't agree 100% with the financial peace university philosophy, but if nothing else, it gives you the opportunity and the framework to just talk about your finances in a way that many couples never will. And it maybe is something to encourage them towards at this point.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

I would agree with you there, Tim. Harvest actually pays for 60 seats every year. So the every dollar counts portion of it. And we just have that as part of our uh offering to anybody in the congregation. And we've also given it to other congregations that have had needs and hey, how do we do this? Well, here, why don't you start with this?

Tim Hopper 27:00

It's very good. And uh other OP congregations can uh think about scaling the the 60 seat factor.

Health Insurance Options On A Budget

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Yeah. Well, but I will put it this way. If other congregations need help, we have a direct connection to Dave Ramsey's organization. And I would if people get a hold of me and say, hey, we'd like some help getting that organized, I will get them in touch with the right people.

Tim Hopper 27:24

That's great. One other topic on this one before we move to the final case is the issue of health insurance. And this couple it says doesn't have health insurance. Ellen's job doesn't provide it. You know, I think for a student, John should consider if he has any options for student insurance. I was a student way longer than I should have. And as a as a grad student, I could get access to health insurance through school. But how would you advise and maybe help and encourage a couple without health insurance at this stage?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Well, I think there's several options. They they could not have it for a while, and I know that's not a popular stance for a lot of people. Or they could look into share programs. I've never had health insurance. And we use Samaritan Ministries, which has been a real blessing for us. And so I like that. It is a little pricey, I think, now, but um, you know, encouraging them to potentially go into those co-ops uh or helping them walk through that, particularly if they're young, I think the risks are in some cases lower. So for me, I I'm always going to push people to those shared co-ops, Christian ministry things if I can.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

It's tough because health insurance can be extremely pricey, and then you still have the deductibles on top of that.

Quiet Needs In A Pastor’s Family

Tim Hopper 28:33

My stance would be, you know, I think the Samaritan or something that makes a lot of sense, but also it's really worth encouraging them to have something at least for catastrophic situations. And they should be looking at in the US on the healthcare marketplace and just get a really high deductible plan. And if they've been living without health insurance, they're probably not needing a lot of medical care, but something that's going to protect them against, you know, a C-section or a cancer diagnosis or something that could just all of a sudden be an enormous thing and then maybe not terribly expensive, although that those prices are getting worse and worse every year, unfortunately. Let's move on to case four. The deacons recently learned that Susan, the pastor's wife, has taken a part-time job at a local hospital in an effort to pay down lingering school debt. They've also discovered that she is carrying significant medical debt that the deacons have not previously known about. As Susan's work schedule has increased, she and Pastor Joseph are now trying to find reliable childcare while she is at work. They have not made a formal request for help, but it is clear that the financial strain and childcare needs are placing added pressure on their family. How should the deacons respond when they become aware of needs within the pastor's family that have not been openly shared? Ray, they haven't asked for help. Approach delicately.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

This pride. We all have pride, right? Some level. And I think that's one thing I try to stress, or we we deacons try to stress in the church, is don't let pride get in the way of asking for some help. It's confidential, right? So we try to just stress that point. We we can't help you if we don't know there's a need. And same with the pastor.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

I see no problem with the pastor's wife working. Put that right out there. Some cases, some people might find that very controversial. I have no problem with the pastor's wife working. If she has a degree in nursing or something, she's allowed to use it. Just like any other person in the church. But we as deacons are able to offer help. Now, there is an issue. He's an employee of the church, so you probably need to get a financial advisor involved if you give them benevolence help. Can you expand on what you mean there? Well, he's an employee of the church. The benevolence fund comes from the church. It might be considered taxable income.

Tim Hopper 30:48

Yeah. That's my understanding in the US that uh even benevolence funds for employees are taxable and we're not qualified to give tax advice, but that's is worth uh getting someone who can clarify.

SPEAKER_04 30:57

So that's why I said you might want to get a financial advisor involved, or they should, to make sure this is the wisest way. Maybe there's some non-financial ways we can help. We can pay for the child care. Or we can ask the church why can't we up his salary? We can always go to the elders before the next congregational meeting and see what it would take.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Yeah. I agree with that, Lynn, too. If there's room in the budget, that can add up add a budget line item specifically for that.

Tim Hopper 31:28

I think in this situation, I would want to go to the ruling elders or at least a ruling elder really right away before the diaconate tries to do anything. Hopefully the the session would be aware of this and have some insight as to what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Yep. I would agree.

Tim Hopper 31:46

Do you guys uh have your deacons or a deacon be part of the pastor's financial review process, or do you have a financial review process or any desires of how you wish that would be done?

SPEAKER_03 31:59

In our church, the session does it, and I'm aware of it as the treasurer, but it's basically they do the review at the end of each year, they make a proposal to the church. Here's what the new salary and housing pay is gonna be for both our pastors and from that standpoint, it's just f a formality, you know, for the church to to vote on, which has never been an issue. So it's been pretty smooth.

SPEAKER_04 32:25

So we at Harvest do have a committee that includes a financial advisor, and then he usually comes and talks to one or two of the deacons and then it goes to session and they make the final decision. But our budget is proposed by the trustees. So this financial person talks to all the pastors, gives his input to the trustees, and then it goes to the session for that last financial blessing before it goes to the congregation. So yes, that financial person would actually bring this to light to both the trustees and the session. And if a deacon found out about this before that happened, we would go to the finance committee and say, Hey, we need to talk about this before the next congregational meeting.

Tim Hopper 33:13

I think I've said on these real-world cases before that I I think a really good model for a lot of churches to consider would be for a deacon and a ruling elder together to meet with your pastor every year and you know, both be able to understand how they're being provided for and what changes need to be made. I think it is something to consider. But I would say at minimum there should be some annual process to be understanding the need for cost of living adjustments and if the pastor's salary is providing for him. Jared, any insight on this situation?

SPEAKER_01 33:46

I think one of the things that I'm assuming this couple has young children. So I'm I'm making the assumption that they're probably young themselves to some degree, maybe under 30 or under 40. It could be beneficial. Like if we're going to talk about childcare, um, is there other mothers in the church? I know that's one thing. Uh, you know, I have young children and my wife stays at home, but when things happen in life, I don't have grandparents around where I'm at in Virginia. My wife doesn't either. And so we do rely on our church family to help us in a lot of ways. And we help them in a lot of ways. And so I think there's this give and take. And so if this is a season for for this young pastor and his wife, you know, I I would want to facilitate or try to facilitate a way where can we avoid the cost of burden of sending somebody to child care altogether? I think they're better in somebody's house in some degrees, if possible. You know, I understand there may be some other nuances there that I don't know about. But uh, yeah, I think that's my biggest thing. I mean, if she's gonna go back in the field work, if that has to happen, and I don't think that's the natural design, but I understand people have liberties and Christian liberties, and and and we live in a complex world. I get it, it's expensive. But if that must happen, then I think the church, if at all possible, if we can find a young family to to help them out for a season, like I don't want to go that route before I put them in child care. That's just my two cents about it. But that's a great point.

Tim Hopper 35:19

As we wrap up here, uh one thing we haven't talked about is actually talking to your pastor about this. Ray, you open by saying you'd tread carefully or something. But if you decided, hey, this is an issue that the deacons should raise with the pastor and try to understand the need and understand we can help. Any advice on how you do that? I'll start that with something else I've said on real world cases before, which is deacons need to have a good relationship with your pastor and be building a relationship and a friendship to where this becomes a kind of natural thing you can talk about. But any other advice? I agree with that, Tim.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

I think having an open and real relationship with our deacons, with our elders, with our pastors is key. And unfortunately, in our church, we have that. And we can joke around, we can tease each other. At the end of the day, we all love each other. And it's really I love seeing it. We had our annual meeting at the end of January. I always say when I give the deacon's report to the congregation that it really warms my heart to see the love of Christ throughout the church. All the members. And that I give the credit 100% to God. And but it really comes down to the faithful preaching of the word. And the people get it. I just see it visibly throughout the church. And it just it's it's just wonderful to see. So if we do have that relationship, a close relationship with our pastors and our elders and and our church members.

Tim Hopper 36:54

I think as with any diaconal scenario like this where you've gotten some information or not from the source, it's wise to really go into it, not assuming that you know the whole story, because as I'm sure we've all learned over and over, you never know the whole story here. And things can just be really mixed up through the grapevine. And it's worth just going and trying to explore and in a in a way that's showing your love and desire to help and just to understand the situation before coming in and saying, Oh, pastor, we've heard this is happening, so we're gonna go arrange this child here, blah, blah, blah. Like you need to slow down and get the right information first.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

Yeah.

Final Encouragement And Resources

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Yeah. I think as far as approaching the pastor, raise exactly the right thing, you know, approach with caution and be careful. But I think one of the things, if as a deacon, if if you can approach your pastor, and this does require having a good relationship with him, just approach him man to man. Hey man, are you okay? Look him in the eye, be a man, and show him love and show him that tangible grace that God gives us and that gift of being a deacon to really sympathize with people's struggles, you know. I think it's a real thing that God gives us. And so we get to, in a way, unwrap those grave clothes with them. And Christ calls us to do that very thing. And so just ask him, you know, don't be afraid and try to break that wall, maybe that he's God of pride, because he's a minister of the gospel, and Satan would sift him like we. We have to be consciously aware of that. Our pastors and our elders, we have to be praying for them because they are under attack from the enemy and their own flesh and the world. You know, we have to be conscientious of that. So it's a real world that we're living in here. Very true.

Tim Hopper 38:38

Thank you, brothers. Any concluding thoughts as we wrap? No, this has been great. Appreciate it. Thank you, Lynn, Jared, and Ray, for the great discussion and for taking the time to serve other deacons in this way. Deacons, we pray that our discussion will be helpful for you as you minister in your local congregation.

David Nakhla 38:53

Thanks so much for joining us. Special word of thanks to our producer, Trish Dugan, who works faithfully behind the scenes to bring this podcast to you. Be sure to visit our website, thereformdeacon.org, where you'll find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And we hope you'll join us again soon for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.