National Diaconal Summit Invitation

Tim Hopper 0:00

225 men registered. 17 OPC Presbyteries represented. 15 speakers lined up. Food, fellowship, and time to recharge. All this June 25th through 27th in Chicago at the OPC National Diaconal Summit. Registration ends May 15th. The next summit isn't for four years. Deacons don't miss this one. Register today at opccdm.org.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

The things we've just talked about come as a result of being overwhelmed with the work sometimes. Thankfully, when that happens, the Holy Spirit's work in our lives brings conviction of pride instead of if it's to be a top to me kind of mentality. And if it comes in time, the Holy Spirit's never late, and repentance follows a perfectly move forward a plan.

What A Mature Deacon Means

David Nakhla 0:46

Welcome to the Reform Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reform Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Tim Hopper 1:06

Hello, my name is Tim Hopper. I serve on the OPC's Committee on Deconal Ministries, and today I'm talking with McCrae Simmons, a deacon at Zion OPC in Holly Springs, North Carolina, about how a mature deacon stays motivated and presses on in his ministry. McCray and his wife Kathy have two grown married children and are the grandparents to 11 grandchildren. McRae is currently the sole deacon at Zion. He served as a deacon at two other congregations prior to helping plant Zion. McRae, thank you for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Thank you for having me, Tim. I'm very humbled by it.

Tim Hopper 1:38

And as I guess I didn't mention in the intro, you and I served together as deacons for about 10 years at Shiloh before you went on to Zion.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

That's correct.

From Rural Faith To The OPC

Tim Hopper 1:47

Maybe it goes without saying, but we should probably define what we mean when we say mature deacon. I hope it's clear we're not referring primarily to age, but to experience, someone who, through the years of service, has grown in spiritual maturity through his deaconal work. Along the way, there can be times of discouragement, especially when the work feels repetitive or when long-term situations don't seem to change or get better. These challenges can sometimes lead to weariness or a loss of motivation in a deacon's service. McRae, how about you tell us how you came to faith in Christ and then later came to the OPC?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

I grew up in a small rural area of eastern North Carolina. My family attended a conservative Methodist church in a farming community. Really don't ever remember not believing that Jesus is the savior of the world. And like many stories of walking an aisle during a fall revival, the Lord saved me at a very young age. While I grew up in a home where the Bible was read and we prayed together as a family, attended a very solid summer camp supported by the Christian Missionary Alliance Church. There was a solid understanding of a sovereign God and that he so loved the world that he gave his only son for my sins. I was not brought up with any deep theological training or understanding of covenant. Really never knew the term reformed until my wife and I and our two children began attending a large historic Presbyterian church in Columbia, South Carolina in the mid-90s. In between those two periods of my life, the lack of theological training led to some wide swings of views of Scripture, from charismatic teaching to finally settling in with a conservative Southern Baptist when we got back to when we were in Raleigh. It was while under the very solid preaching in Columbia and the kind nurturing of the pastor there that uh we would leave on Sundays and say, Yeah, that's what we believe, but we just never thought through it that way, or we'd we never had a systematic theological understanding of how it all connected. Not to draw this out much longer, but a job moved back to North Carolina after Columbia led to our search for a Presbyterian church to attend, and that's when we figured out that not all Presbyterian churches are the same, and that the letters after the word Presbyterian were very important to distinguish. After visiting several different churches, we met some folks who were going to Pilgrim, OPC, and Raleigh, and based on the solid preaching there, we joined there and have been in the OPC ever since.

Tim Hopper 4:20

And I also didn't mention in the intro your son-in-law is a ruling elder in the OPC, and your son is a minister in the OPC as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

No. That's right. My son-in-law is elder at Pilgrim, and my son is a pastor in State College in Pennsylvania.

Learning The Work Through Mentors

Tim Hopper 4:35

Wonderful uh blessing there. So when were you first ordained as a deacon? I actually don't know the answer to this. I I should know the answer.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, it was actually in the early 2000s when we came back from Columbia. I I was ordained while a member of Pilgrim in I think it was around 2003, the best I can recollect. And then through two church plants since then, I've been blessed to continue as a deacon at uh both of the church plants as well.

Tim Hopper 5:01

Very good, yeah. So you had served for a number of years, seven years or so before our church where we met at Shiloh in Raleigh was planted in in 2010, where you served on the provisional diaconate there for a few years. And then in 2013, I was ordained, and we were all installed uh along with our dear friend who's gone to be with the Lord, um, Pete Tola, who the three of us served together for a number of years. Yes. Both of them both of us are going to get choked up if we uh reflect too much on our can't talk about that too much. Yeah. But it was through the two of you, and and I regret not being able to record a podcast with him. He went to be with the Lord a few years ago, and you had served together at Pilgrim and then at Gylo. And and the two of you really took me under your wing when I became a deacon at 27 years old and and didn't know what I was doing in in many ways. And with our pastor Gabe Floor, just a lot of great training and and meetings. And then really, I think, you know, we talk a lot on the CDM about what it means to to train deacons. And I think the best way to train in kind of practical diaconal things is just to be able to sit down in diaconal meetings and then just meetings with, you know, discussions, conversations with folks in your congregation and and walk-ins that you have. And I was able to do that for well for many years with you and and Pete. And but in those early years, just really watching how the two of you listened and spoke and encouraged and challenged really shaped me in a lot of ways that I'm very thankful for. And I think it would be hard. Some deacons are kind of de novo in a congregation where they go from zero to one or zero to two, and they don't have that. Uh, and I think that's tough. And I hope the podcast is an asset to folks there, but I'm very thankful for those years with you guys all the way up until just within a short time, you went to the church plant and Pete went to glory. But those were a real blessing, those 10 years serving with you.

Pride, Repentance, And Practical Atheism

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Same here. We've been very blessed to have served with you.

Tim Hopper 7:03

How has serving as a deacon over now 20 plus years shaped you personally and in your spiritual life?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Well, my answer will be surprising, maybe. I've been very humbled as I've become more and more aware of my own sin of unbelief. What do I mean by that? Um, I come face to face too often with how dependent I am on if it's to be, it's up to me mentality. I constantly have to confess and battle that. A situation is presented, I kick into do mode without stopping to pray, without a thought that this is bigger than me, but not bigger than God. I don't remember who first used the phrase, but it's easy to become a practical atheist while I'm supposed to understand these things and serving the Lord first by coming to Him for guidance. So answer your question bluntly. I spend a lot of time in repentance of my pride.

Tim Hopper 8:02

I think it's something I've talked about on the podcast, I think others as well, is uh I think a lot of us end up becoming deacons because we're doers, but that often is something we need to use appropriately and cautiously and remember um to sit at the Lord's feet and to just go to the Lord in faith and prayer. And you know, I think in in your deacon meetings, if you're not praying together, an encouragement for deacons to take that time to pray together and care for your own soul and care for one another's souls as you serve. That's definitely there's a possibility that of just kind of serving on autopilot, and your joy in the Lord and faith in the Lord are waning, and we need to take care of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Well, you see, the the type of person that is typically a parent in a congregation for deacon material will say it's a person who gets the job done. He is engaged in conversations with folks and uh finds out there's an issue, and and you see him taking action to get it done before he's a deacon. And when the deacon nominations come out, that's uh naturally migrate to people who uh uh are in that kind of mode that uh that take charge. And so uh that temptation to do that without stopping and praying and then getting into situations over your head very quickly when you do that, just constant battle of the will.

Tim Hopper 9:23

Yeah, that's very great advice. You served now on two provisional diaconates at Mission Works, which for those who don't know the term provisional diaconate, meaning you were an ordained deacon, but we don't have technical installation of deacons necessarily at Mission Works according to the Book of Church Order, but serving at the request of the session during that time. I guess the first time you did it with our brother Pete, and then uh most recently at Zion you did it for yourself. Uh still currently a solo deacon, hopefully changing that soon.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yes.

Mission Work Load And Delegation

Tim Hopper 9:53

But are there any unique challenges that have come with being a deacon at a mission work?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Depending on the logistics, uh, a mission work can present an overwhelming amount of work to do. The Lord's Day can be so full of to-dos that the focus of the deacon turns into a job instead of joy in worship, especially if the deacon or deacons take on all the work themselves instead of organizing volunteers from among the members. Also, while communication is always key, whether it's an established congregation or mission work, lack of communication seems to be more negatively impactful in a church plan. Everyone is heads down to make mission work work actually viable. Again, instead of starting with an attitude of dependence on God, demonstrated by a position of prayer, the go get them deacon's tendency is to jump into do mode. As I thought back through what you asked, that would be my main challenge is to stop and pray.

Tim Hopper 11:00

That's good. I think also doing that practical thing is delegation, uh, which I know from early on when we were at Shiloh in 2010 to 2013, a meeting in a school, you know, I was one of the ones being a receiver of that delegation, but y'all did a good job of getting a lot of folks helping with setting up and tearing down, I think so it wasn't just all following on you.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yes, and that and that's true of the current uh church plan as well. People are more than willing to help if they're just asked. Uh sometimes people will do it naturally when they see uh see you doing something, they'll jump in. But uh it does become very important to engage with individuals, and I think people grow in many ways, uh friendships grow. You start to see diaconal candidates rise to the top and are considered. We have uh training going on now with three other men who have been identified uh and uh nominated by the congregation, and so we're going through uh training with them now.

Tim Hopper 11:55

Very good. When you were, I guess, still serving as a solo deacon, now your church is particularized, but you know, not a lot has changed. You're still meeting in a school, you have the same ruling elders that you had, and that actually the same pastor you had before you're particularized, so a little bit of a different mission work. But as a solo deacon, were you and are you meeting more with your session than maybe we would have done when we had a diaconate of three to six?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Well, when I talked about lack of communication, that can be because busyness of everybody. All those men are very busy, I'm busy. And we finally realize, and we have to confess to each other, we need to meet. Just running together on Sunday after worship and trying to talk about things is not helpful. It's much more helpful to meet in person, and and so we've tried to establish a better cadence than we did in the beginning of the church plant to uh make sure we're communicating well, and I'm not learning something about some activity that's planned on the calendar that the session discussed at their last session meeting, and I hear about it during the announcements. Right. That's not a good thing. And so we've just all tried to do a better job of, and I think that happens everywhere, whether it's a church plant or uh an established congregation. I I know that happened several times with us at Shiloh too, where, oh, really? We're doing that. Okay, good, good. Um uh we need to get in gear to start planning. So uh anyway, that would be my encouragement.

Why Church Plants Still Need Deacons

Tim Hopper 13:18

Yeah, that's very good. I think another thing just generally that an idea that the CDM and some of the Presbyterian Diaconal Committees are trying to promote more is that you know, diaconal needs don't disappear just because you're a church plant, and maybe they escalate because you're a church plant. And in the two that you've been a part of, you've been half of or all of the diaconate. And so you've been serving that way. But in many of our churches, church plants don't have diaconates. And an idea that's been proposed, and I think it's starting to bear fruit in small ways, is for church plants to seek out provisional deacons, potentially even from other congregations. And that's something we would encourage you, you know, elders, pastors listening to this, deacons, maybe you can be involved. There are mission works that don't have deacons, talk to your Presbytery Diaconal Committee. You can find the contact on opccdm.org, or if if you ask around, you can get to them without too much trouble and say, hey, is there somebody who could, you know, maybe he can't even be there that often, but who can just help out and be a listening ear and maybe be involved in little ways because diaconal needs are real and the demands on the session, which may also be partially long distance, is maybe more in certain ways in a church plant. And if the diaconal responsibilities fall there, um that's going to be a big challenge. So all that to say, deacons are a need and a blessing to a church plant. And so let's think about ways in the OPC that we can provide that through creative ways if necessary.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Or like in the case where we had, it was very encouraging to continue to meet, not as often as I did when I was with Shiloh, but the Shiloh deacons were very helpful to like if I needed to be a way to help my mother or my mother-in-law for alter care or something of that nature to cover for me, it was helpful just to have somebody to know that there was somebody back there from the other diaconate from you guys to come over uh when that was possible. But that's another way to fill that gap too when there's just maybe a single deacon. In the case where there's a single deacon, that's helpful to rely on those guys and to continue to meet with them for your own encouragement.

Discouragement That Drives Us To Prayer

Tim Hopper 15:30

Yeah, absolutely. In that case, we were about 20 miles apart, which is uh, you know, easier than some other circumstances. That's right. That's right. It was it is able to work for us. Can you give us any examples of discouragements you've faced in the diaconate that have challenged you? And how did you resist the urge to just maybe ignore those and hope they'd get better on their own?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Well, not to continue to be a downer in my answers, but the things we've just talked about come as a result of being overwhelmed with the work sometimes. So thankfully, when that happens, the Holy Spirit's work in our lives brings conviction of the sin of pride, the sin of if it's to be, it's up to me kind of mentality. And it's comes in time. The Holy Spirit's never late and repentance follows, and prayerfully we move forward with a plan. So while the initial temptation may be to hope the issue goes away, I I really believe that the Lord will work, especially in a group of deacons that are praying together, that the Lord will draw us to himself to sanctify us while we're in the middle of the work.

Fellowship That Keeps Deacons Going

Tim Hopper 16:33

Just makes me think of a quote. I I think it's Calvin. I can't I can't come up with it right now, but um, that we're not to tire in doing good to the others and doing good to others because the Lord doesn't tire in doing good to us. Um and I guess that's a paraphrase of scripture, and you know, it's such a reminder for us as deacons because I think so often the situations that are the most demanding are the going to be the most tiring, which I I guess maybe is obvious that it goes hand in hand. But I think it's surprising sometimes when the ones that you're really enthusiastic about helping just because it's a nice situation, a person who's very receptive and open, it ends up just being so easy because they're so receptive and open, right? And then it just is done with. And it's the ones who take a lot out of you that can end up taking a lot of your time as well. How important to you has been fellowship with other deacons and helping you press on, and how have other deacons encouraged you while you were struggling? You were you were just alluding to, you know, while you've been a solo deacon, being able to continue to meet with the deacons at your parent church at Shiloh. Are there other aspects of that?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, it's so important and it's neglected the fellowship is uh because of the work sometimes. I've certainly missed the fellowship in my current situation as a single deacon, but uh, you know, except for the times I was able to fellowship with you guys. But I've mentioned that God is raising up several candidates from Zion's congregation that are in training now, and even the training, just getting back together with the men in my dining room for training has been great. Pastor Izal and myself, he's going through the Westminster Confession, and I'm taking us through uh uh a book on the diaconate, and we've got uh several months ahead of us in this training, but just that time together again with men with like-mindedness has been a great encouragement to be able to do that together. Another breath of fresh air. But uh an example of uh encouragement from my fellow deacons before, as you know, was when Kathy and I were going through a string of months of elder care, I and I would say months, I mean a couple years. Yeah, yeah. Elder care first for her dad in 2014, who ended up uh dying in 2014, then my dad, and while my dad was dealing with cancer and eventually died, we learned that her mom had Alzheimer's, and so between 2014 and 2022, it was like one after another. And you guys I saw that we were struggling under the pressure of the travel, the missed work that I was seeing professionally, missed worship with the congregation because we were gone a lot, and so much more. Uh, but you guys came to me and you asked me to take some time away because you knew I probably wouldn't do it on my own, and you provided in some other ways too that were all an encouragement to Kathy and me.

Staying In Step With The Session

Tim Hopper 19:22

Yeah, and that was a hard thing for us to do, knowing that you loved serving and desired to be doing that, and we loved serving with you, but really thought that was best for you, and which I think it proved it was. I was thinking about this question in my own life, and during that era when it was just Pete and I serving together, kind of you were on a sabbatical period, and I think there were some tough situations during that time, and I think Pete and I kind of took turns talking each other off a ledge, you know, one of us getting discouraged about a situation, and you know, the other one just having a good day and be able to say, you know, no, just like this is in the Lord's hand, keep pressing on, and then maybe a few weeks later the tables would turn, maybe even about the same situation, I think. And you know, that's such a blessing, and absolutely not to discourage solo deacons, but I think the biblical norm for us to have a plurality of deacons and what a blessing that should be for each other, and you know, has been for me with serving with you two, and then you know, we kind of had a a turnaround and then had three new guys, you know, as you were on your way to the church plant, three new guys show up and you know have that same opportunity again. And you really do become a band of brothers, or you should become a band of brothers support each other. That's right. One other thing for those who are listening who hopefully are already aware, but if you're not aware, this summer is a national diaconal summit of the Committee on Diaconal Ministries in Wheaton. And as you're listening to this, uh, you're running out of time to register for that. So absolutely a great time to fellowship with other deacons and spend time with other deacons outside your own diaconate. And, you know, one of the things we try to do there is make sure that deacons from the same presbyteries are meeting each other. And that's just a great way to build relationships. Another thing that the CDM provides as well is the deacon check-in, which you can find at opccdm.org. And that's just an opportunity twice a year to get paired with another deacon and just meet together on a Zoom call or FaceTime or something or phone call and get to know one another and pray for each other. And so we, as your denominational diaconal committee, really trying to provide encouragement for deacons as well when sometimes you don't get that type of fellowship within your church for the circumstances of your church. Yes. How has your relationship with the sessions that you've served with helped sustain you in difficult seasons?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah, the session support has meant so much. I mentioned before about the importance of communication. It's frequent that the Lord calls to our attention often when we're not communicating with each other, um, misunderstandings. And I don't mean in a way that's uh causes friction, but misunderstandings can develop or temptations to complain can. But uh thankfully instead of going down that path, we see it. Get together for a reset. It's a joint time and prayer together. Um it's uh so helpful. You know, when you see in Acts chapter six, the reason that deacons were called to take the work off of uh serving tables for the session or the apostles who are preaching, it's helpful still to have that interaction, communication, and uh encouragement, mutual encouragement with uh one another. And we've been uh have had that in three different sessions now.

Serving Without Neglecting Your Wife

Tim Hopper 22:41

Yeah, absolutely. And getting together regularly, I think is such a huge part of that. And probably after the church plant, we restructured and started meeting together every two months, our full diaconatin session. And I'd moved recently in my new church, the deacons and and elders are meeting together every month, which is a big commitment. But I think just developing that relationship and staying in communication is really essential. And then also just the one-on-one fellowship, again, that I mean the the brotherhood, not that we don't have a brotherhood of all believers, but as officers serving the Lord, we just understand the challenges one another going through and just being able to fellowship one-on-one with session members as well should be such a blessing for us and has been for me so many times. Yes. Same here. McCray, how has your wife, Kathy, experienced your diaconal ministry over the years? And how have you worked to guard against the work wearing on your marriage and on your family when it's challenging and busy and full?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah, this this is another example of how the Holy Spirit uses situations to sanctify us and me. Too too many times I've neglected to deacon my wife while doing good works at church. She's very supportive of my calling. She's an understanding person, but there's the normal work of maintaining a family and more importantly, our relationship that can be neglected and have detrimental effects. It's it's also, I think, important to listen to input that our wives have because the Lord has certainly gifted them with uh intuition and discernment that are different than ours. Kathy's radar picks up on situations that I totally miss sometimes. And while much of the work of the deacon among members of the church is confidential, our wives would benefit so much if we would take time to pray together about our diaconal work, even without sharing the specific details of other family situations, but just to show we're a team at home in each other's court for family situations, but it's uh helpful to know that we're a team in each other's court for God's multiple callings in our lives. But e even after all these years, I have to hearken to the Apostle Paul's comments, not that I have already obtained this. I frequently am driven to confession and repentance. I'm certainly thankful for Lippians 1.6, where the Lord has promised to continue to work in us until he comes.

Tim Hopper 25:07

Yeah. That's that's really helpful. I'm gonna try to broach that same topic on my talk at the diaconal summit this summer. And uh, you know, we need to care for our wives and consider them and hear them. When I was single when I became a deacon, and our other deacon, Pete, at the time, was single, and Kathy was such an asset to us as an encouragement to me and Pete and to you, but also just really in tune with a lot of things and raising concerns about situations. You know, she would have conversations with ladies in the church, particularly that weren't conversations we were having, and she'd say, you know, just to keep an eye out on this, and just really blessed us, and as I'm sure is continuing now, as it has over these many years.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah, we had these conversations before, I think, among the deacons at Shiloh's, that our wives sometimes will have these conversations, whether it's in the fellowship hall or in the ladies' restroom, a lot of uh conversations going in there, and you find out that there's a need that the husband has not brought our attention, or is uh maybe there's a pride situation that's in the way, and they learn of those things. And again, it's confidential nature. She brings it up, she tells me about you may want to talk to. I'll just use the a generic name Joe, and she leaves it at that. And uh, but it's just uh really important to be able to hear those uh things when she picks them up.

Training New Deacons Through Communication

Tim Hopper 26:33

I think also of another particular situation uh many years ago where our church was able to take in a family with a single mother and six kids that actually lived in a house that the church owned. And uh you and Kathy just jumped into that with both feet and helped so much, but just what a blessing that she was in being able to serve them and help provide for them and get them at church and get those kids what they needed. That I really think, you know, as we talk about the qualifications of a deacon's wife, and usually the thinking of 1 Timothy 3, we're saying, you know, that's the deacon's wife is going to be involved in the work as well. And I think that happens in lots of small ways, but I think in that particular circumstance happened in a really big way where the two of you are able to serve together in a very complicated and difficult situation. You were able to be a team in that in a way that just was a good blessing to the church and a good testimony to the Lord's love for the stranger. Right now you're going through training of deacon candidates. How can an experienced deacon encourage and strengthen newer deacons?

SPEAKER_01 27:36

You've probably heard well, everybody's probably heard this. The real estate agent says location, location, location. I think deacons need to remember communication, communication, communication. Sharing with one another our struggles, whether those be emanating from strains on our work, home, church balance, or otherwise, it's a a really great personal benefit to one another and ultimately for the church family to have open communication among the diaconate uh before issues escalate. I've liked the tradition uh for our deacon meetings of leading off our by reading a good book on the role of the deacon and discussing it before we get into the quote unquote business portion of the meeting. I think that helps to often open up discussions of personal struggles and joys that are encouraging to one another, and we kind of feed off of that as we get into those discussions. But I highly recommend, if that's not a practice among deacons, that you have a time where you're learning together from a good book that's been written on the subject of being a deacon, and then that time of discussion, you'll learn things about your brothers that had no idea things that have happened in their past or joys and discouragements that you can pray for one another about.

Humility With Zeal In New Officers

Tim Hopper 28:52

Yeah, that's very good. When I was first ordained, we read Kevin DeYoung's What is the Mission of the Church, which was a really good discussion to get us on the same page and and thinking in the same direction and a number of other books. I mentioned on the podcast before, during your sabbatical period, Pete and I read Ed Welch's little book, Side by Side, which is a simple book in a lot of ways, but was very profound for me. But just the discussions that it led for the two of us to have, I think was really helpful for me. But yeah, I love that practice and love that we continued it. It can be very slow going. I mean, it would take us years to get through a little book, but we read some very good stuff, great discussions. What would you say to an enthusiastic, newly installed deacon who thinks he has all the answers?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

I would first admit that the pendulum swings both ways. I think if we're talking about the mature deacon here, the mature guys have the tendency to think, well, this is the way we've always done it, and we can have our own blind spots that we're not aware of. And then you, as a new deacon, speaking to the new deacon who knows it all, swings the other way of questioning everything. In that situation, I would say, let's pray so that we can both see our blind spots and ask the Lord to help us work together for the benefit of his church.

Tim Hopper 30:11

I think that's also a thing to be conscientious of in ordaining someone. That's a trait to look out for for the session, especially doing the examination of the man's character and and to be concerned about potentially if that is how he always is gonna act, always thinks he knows it. That maybe is something that should have been identified up front.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

But I'm thankful I've not had to face that situation through three diac in it, so I have not.

Tim Hopper 30:39

I think at the same time, you know, you you want to encourage the zeal and enthusiasm, right? Yes. You don't always have that same kind of enthusiasm. It wanes over time or ebbs and flows, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Well, you might benefit from the energy too. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hopper 30:55

No, I think that's exactly right. And but then to be able to try to direct that and wow, I mean, I just think to when I was ordained 13 years ago to where I am now, freshly in my 40s, that just the Lord has sanctified and matured me so much, partially through being a deacon, through the ordinary means of gracious, through life, through getting married, through becoming a parent, that you know, I'm thankful that I'm not what I was then, but I'm also very thankful that the Lord called me at that time to serve, right? So um, I would hope if I have the opportunity to serve with a a young enthusiastic deacon that you know the Lord will help you know help me to shepherd him and and guide him. And I think a lot about deacon training and so much of deacon training is just ordinary discipleship, right? That I don't know what percentage, 95% of what makes a deacon is a man who's growing uh in grace and in faith and closer to the Lord and more like our savior. And I think that opportunity for discipleship continues with one another, you know, iron sharpening iron, but I think particularly as an older deacon and a younger deacon together, an experienced deacon and a newer deacon together, there's just uh specific opportunities there to see a man just grow. And, you know, I this is not to be self-promoting, but hopefully as an encouragement. You know, what one of the deacons who was ordained at our church five years ago was, you know, old enough to be my dad, but you know, had been a deacon less time than me. And he said to me a number of times, like, Tim, I've learned so much from you as a deacon. And that's such an encouragement to me, and I thank the Lord for that. So the age from being my point doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. But the Lord gives us those graces. And so if you're the more mature one, uh don't take that responsibility from the Lord lightly, I think is the point I'm trying to make. The Lord can use you. Good point. Again, thank you, McRae, and so thankful to the Lord. I can barely get it out for our friend Pete, who went to be with the Lord unexpectedly and before we thought it would happen, and how the two of you just really encouraged me and and built me up and and helped me be the deacon that I've been. So yeah, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

It's been a great pleasure to see the what the Lord has done in your life for sure.

Tim Hopper 33:18

As a maybe follow-up to that question, if you could go back and talk to yourself in your first year as a deacon 25 years ago, is there anything you would want him to know? Get on your knees and pray more.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah. Uh pray with your wife, be a good listener. The things I've said about communication, communicate, communicate, communicate, your fellow deacons, your session, and the congregation. A lot of things would have gone a lot more smoothly had I known those things in advance in the way I know them now.

Sabbaticals, Burnout, And Life Seasons

Tim Hopper 33:47

Yeah, that's really great. And I think those are good uh podcast topics for this podcast on deacons and prayer and and deacons and communication, I think would be really good podcast topics. One final question for you, McCray. As you alluded to, you had a little period of a sabbatical when life got very busy caring for elderly parents. Do you have any do you have any thoughts on churches encouraging sabbaticals or times of of stepping away for a year or two for deacons for respite? Do you see any value in that?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Well, I mentioned at the top here a personal benefit that we had from the sabbatical while we were going through those situations. I think establishing this idea of communication, I know I keep bringing it up, but I think the concept of this communication that I've talked about, we'll know if someone would benefit from some lessening of responsibilities for a time, whether that be a short sabbatical or a year or two, if you can see that. I personally think this is a personal opinion, that otherwise the aspiration of a man to the office of deacon, the call by God's spirit to the office is one that is called to us to serve full time once we're installed. But I think if we're communicating well, it won't be an issue when the man needs to take some time away.

Tim Hopper 35:06

Yeah, amen. I I agree with you on that. And I I've appreciated how you've desired to serve, even you know, when other things have been demanding. Um, and and for you know, there were a number of years when you were um doing a lot to care for family and still being there to serve. And I think the reason we needed to ask you to take that time is because we knew you just had a desire and a joy in serving that even I think it was a refreshment at times. So, you know, this isn't work, this isn't untraveled, this is you know just the joy of getting to serve the Lord as a deacon. Yes. But we've seen also in our own deacons at Shiloh, young men, families still growing, and that's continuing by God's grace at Shiloh. And I think often young men are hesitant to become deacons with young children because of the demands of that and then the pressure that puts on their wives and their families. And I think that's as you've talked about very worth considering. But I also think it's a great time to be a deacon when the church can support and recognize that might uh vary what you're able to do during that time. You know, when you have a newborn, maybe you're not being able to make meetings every month, or you know, maybe some of your Sunday duties need to be delegated out to someone else. The session and the other deacons need to be able to work with that and adapt with that and not cause young men to get burned out or their uh wives to get dragged around and burned out during that time.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

That's right.

Tim Hopper 36:34

But your children are grown now and you know the demands of life differ, but I think you could probably attest that life doesn't necessarily just slow down just because you have grown children.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

No, it doesn't.

Final Thanks And Where To Learn More

Tim Hopper 36:46

Yeah. So if you wait until it's exactly the right time, that that time might not come, I guess, is the conclusion. Thank you very much, McRae, for joining me on the podcast. We appreciate your wisdom in this area of serving and deacons. We hope this episode was helpful and will be an encouragement to you in your labors for the Lord. God bless you all.

David Nakhla 37:04

Thanks so much for joining us. Special word of thanks to our producer, Trish Dugan, who worked faithfully behind the scenes to bring this podcast to you. Be sure to visit our website, thereformdeacon.org, where you'll find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And we hope you'll join us again soon for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.