Welcome And Meet The Guests

David Nakhla 0:00

An application for deacons, I would like to encourage them to challenge themselves to be willing to face fears and go do difficult things in ministry and don't give in to those fears, but go do the things, particularly the things they're called to do. I don't think everybody's called to go visit Kharkiv. But if in God's providence that's where you're being called to go, I think that we're in the best place when we're following the Lord's will. Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Brad Hertzog 0:48

Welcome and thanks for tuning in to the Reformed Deacon Podcast. I am Brad Herzog. If my name sounds familiar or my voice sounds familiar, it's because you've heard me over an Outward OPC. I'm your guest host for today. Our guests are four men who recently took a trip together. They went to Ukraine. Three of them are for the United States. First, David Nokala, who most of you will probably know quite well. If you're new to the podcast, David is the administrator for the OPC's Committee on Diaconal Ministries and works full-time for the OPC. Chris Cashin, a minister in the OPC and a member of the Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Also, Chris, before being a minister in the OPC, has a long time serving as a deacon as well. And then we have Steven Majauskas. Steven's born and raised at the OPC. He's currently a member at Grace Fellowship in Zeeland, Michigan. And he's about to begin his church's year-long deacon internship program. So those are the three men from the United States. And they, as you might be able to guess, joined our OPC missionary to Ukraine, Heero Hacquebord. And we've got Heero with us, which we're thankful for. It's a lot later his time right now when we're recording. So we appreciate him taking the time. He is the pastor of Holy Trinity Reformed Church in Lviv, Ukraine. And he's lived and ministered in Ukraine since 1997. So these four men took a trip together. You have probably been following along if you're listening today to the reports and the updates on the ministry opportunity the OPC has had in Ukraine and the trips that have been taken. David Nakhla has been over there a few times. One very significant part of this trip that we're excited to talk about today is that they were able to travel to eastern Ukraine. So if you've got your map pictured in your head, you kind of know where Ukraine is. Runs east to west 800 miles. And as you can imagine, as you head east, you've getting closer and closer to the border with Russia. They share a northeast border with Russia. And of course, as you move east, you're in a much more war-torn, dangerous place in Ukraine. And we'll hear a lot more about that. But just to kind of orient your mind and your thinking a little bit, I believe Ukraine, I looked up this morning, is about 800 miles wide. So for us in the United States, we're talking Chicago to New York. And this trip, these four men are traveling much closer to New York City on that thread that you have. And of course, you can imagine some of the issues dealt with. We'll get into the details. We'll get into the trip and things

Lasting Images From Ukraine

Brad Hertzog 3:33

they've learned. But I wondered, man, if we could start a little bit more personal and bigger picture. Remember, all of our listeners, even me as an interviewer, we're coming into this a little bit cold. We haven't been there. We don't know a lot of what's going on other than what we read. Could each of you take a moment and share from this trip when you came home, when you talked to your family, in a couple of years when you tell stories about this trip? What's the most significant or memorable image or scene that you have from this trip? Could you take a minute, paint the picture? What comes to mind and why was it so memorable or why was it so meaningful for you? No rules, no, just like what is the lasting image in each of your minds? I thought, David, would you mind kind of starting and getting us rolling and then we'll we'll move to the others?

David Nakhla 4:27

Yeah, I'll give it a shot. Just the opportunity to visit with and be with these and actually meet firsthand some of these saints who we've been following, uh praying for for four years now. I began getting emails from Mark Agarkov in April or May of 2022. And to finally meet him in person for the first time, embrace him and just get to know him, that to me was one of the most special aspects of this trip and just be so encouraged by the significant amount of danger that he has personally faced and those working with him have faced. And yet carrying on a vibrant ministry of mercy over so many years, continuing over so many years. Yeah, he's just a superstar in my mind, and it was just a great privilege to meet him.

Brad Hertzog 5:20

Great. Thanks. Chris, maybe you could go. I'm gonna pick the three US guys first before I have Heero share his. So, Chris, if you wouldn't mind sharing your most memorable or meaningful moment that you've got.

Chris Cashen 5:31

Brad, it's really tough to actually pick one. I would suppose it was worship. As we went and knew that we were in a dangerous place and experienced that, just a little taste of it. The folks there, the the members of the congregation, were yet coming together in worship and praising God. There was such a joy in their heart. And um even though they had films on the glass to their worship space, which would protect them from shrapnel, they were coming together in spite of the dangers and expressing their love for the Lord and their love for one another. And uh, so that was just an amazing thing to see and to appreciate. And I think that's what moved me the most was just their gathering together to hear the word of God, coming to listen to us, who are we, uh, to put on a conference for them and and rejoicing in in what the Lord Jesus Christ is doing. So I'd have to say that was the most moving part.

Brad Hertzog 6:30

That's powerful. Thanks.

Stephen Majauskas 6:31

Stephen? Yeah, thanks. Um yeah, it was such a privilege to be able to go. And as David said, the war's been going on for four years. And yeah, he was actually the one who told me about Mark and the work they were doing. I was more familiar with Pastor Heero's church and the work MTW is doing with crates for Ukraine, which they started in the fall when the war was going. But yeah, the going there and meeting these saints that we've prayed for, we've prayed for their protection, we prayed blessing on the work that they're doing and seeing some of the converts that were displaced, internally displaced people worshiping, and then even serving at their same Mercy Ministry Center and to see the joy that they have, and then also some of the trials that they're going through and with the drone attacks and the missile attacks. And yeah, just meeting the saints that we've prayed for and just being able to go there in person and it was a great privilege. And we had that opportunity to go and see their mercy ministry and meet some of the displaced people, pray with them and speak to them, and to see their work in real time and what they're doing, that was also a big privilege. Good.

Brad Hertzog 7:37

Thanks. Heero, I'm sure it's hard to select memories. You live in this every day, but with this, these three men along with you to head to the eastern side of Ukraine, what memory comes to mind for you or what moment kind of stands out on this particular trip?

Heero Hacquebord 7:51

For me, one moment that I remember very clearly is when I first walked out in front of the congregation there to bring the first message, and I was just overwhelmed with emotion. I couldn't speak the first minute or so. And I think it's because, you know, we've been praying for these people in this city, and we've been overwhelmed thinking about everything they've endured the last four years. And I still get emotional now when I think about it, but just looking these people in the eye, and I don't know, it's it's a mix of emotions, just you know, empathy for them and joy that we can be there. And also just yeah, just being struck with the realities of their life living in the city. And so many people we met are people who were displaced. You know, so they have come from cities that are not there anymore, and their homes are not there anymore. So it was for me, it was really moving to talk to these people and to see them and to stand in front of them and a great privilege to bring, you know, God's word to them, hopefully was somehow encouraging.

Brad Hertzog 8:52

Thanks. That helps us to uh, you know, I'm thinking of our listeners too, who are coming into this cold, you know, might be at the gym or mowing the lawn. It gives us a sense of what you men were able in God's providence to experience. So I appreciate you guys sharing that and helping us kind of move into a pretty serious

A Tour Of Life in Ukraine

Brad Hertzog 9:10

topic. Heero, I wondered if you could now, I'm sure you do this a lot, but I wonder if you could give us a little tour of life in Ukraine. You are in Lviv, I understand, toward the central western side. Could you give us a little tour geographically and just what life is like from where you minister as you move further east? And then this trip. I don't know how often, if you've been to the eastern side before, or if this was your first time there, what are the differences between where you minister and what life is really like, what threats and dangers there are? And then as you men move to the eastern side, give us a picture of the reality of what Christians and people are facing and what the church is facing in particular, as you men have started to hint at, but I thought maybe you could build a better picture for us.

Heero Hacquebord 9:58

Sure. Yes, you know, what people experience or how people are experiencing the war really depends on your location and also on your particular situation, obviously. You know, if you have family members near the front lines or not. So I can only speak for my experience and what I know of other people's experience. Generally speaking, the farther west you are, closer to Poland, as we are here in Lviv, the safer you are. So our city, Lviv, is the safest large city in the country. That means we get aerial attacks very sporadically. So every two, three months or so, something will happen. We get um sirens during the day. We actually have one right now where some people will go to the basement or some kind of a bomb shelter. But usually nothing happens when we have those sirens. And then as you move east in the country to cities like Kiev, Dnipro, or Odessa in the south, attacks will be much more often, about weekly or several times a week. And those attacks can be pretty severe, you know, where apartment buildings or significant parts of apartment buildings can be destroyed in those attacks, and you can have several people died and many injured in one attack. There was a big attack this past Saturday night in Kiev, for example, with tens of people injured and several people who died during that attack. And that becomes in the reality as you drive around the city, you see that around you. And then if you if you move farther east to Kharkivkiv, where we were, we were there on a very quiet weekend, which means all they had was drone attacks. And the sirens were going on and off throughout the day. I lost track of, you know, when a siren was starting, when the sirens were ending, because they were just attacks pretty much around the clock, and we could hear some gunfire, anti-aircraft or air defense gunfire and so on. But that was a very quiet weekend. So in a city like that, you have that kind of thing going on all the time. But life continues as normal across the country. So you have restaurants working, public transportation, coffee shops, and so on, universities. Well, in the east, universities will be online, but life does continue on as normal. Of course, then if you move east of there into the occupied parts of Ukraine, you will have a lot of Protestant churches that have been burned down, churches that do not exist anymore because they have been persecuted in the parts that are occupied by Russia. But yeah, the closer you get to the east, the harder it is to get to worship, the more dangerous your life is every day. But in the bigger cities, life still continues on as normal. So that gives you just kind of a general idea.

Brad Hertzog 12:38

Yeah, that's helpful. Have you been to the eastern this city that you went to before? Was this your first time? Like, what's that been like for you in your ministry?

Heero Hacquebord 12:46

Yeah, this is my first time being there after the war has started. I've been there three or four times before over many years. And I was um in the south near the front lines at the beginning of the war, but it's it's rare that I would go that that close to the front lines.

Brad Hertzog 13:03

Was it somewhat startling to you, or were you well versed enough in what to expect as you made this trip that you, you know, obviously the images make it very concrete and tangible, but was it different than what you expected, or kind of like what you expected?

Heero Hacquebord 13:19

What startled me was not so much buildings that were significantly damaged or boarded up windows, because I have seen those even in in Lviv where we live. What startled me was the extent to which the city is alive. And, you know, you asked about an image, the second image I could think of that stands out in my mind is walking in a central park of Kharkivkiv on a Sunday afternoon, and there are many people walking in the city, and it feels like a stroll through any beautiful park in any city in the world, and there's there are beautiful Easter decorations, and it feels surreal. And we go into this beautiful zoo, and it's you know, it doesn't feel like there's a war going on in the country. So that that's actually what struck me most in Kharkivkiv is how much of the city feels so normal and is so beautiful, and not only survives, but thrives.

Brad Hertzog 14:11

And maybe last question on this, just trying to fill out the picture. The churches in particular, East, where you just were, what challenges we're gonna get into your ministry and your church's ministry and the things that you've been able to do, but what challenges in particular do they face? I mean, I think Chris was the one that had mentioned that just them coming out to worship is challenging, but how I guess I'm looking for a realistic image in my mind and heart. Like they're living life, but what are they facing that none of us are facing when we think about church life?

Heero Hacquebord 14:44

Right. So I mean, there are different people in that church. There are people who are from Kharkiv, so they have their own homes. And and those people, they do face significant danger throughout the week. So they have to keep close track on their phones on uh social media when a siren goes off to understand what kind of a siren it is. You know, what is the specific attack? Is it something near their neighborhood? Do they need to go to the basement or not? People can go to the basement or to bomb shelter every time there's a siren because then they would spend the whole day in the bomb shelter, and you can't live like that. So they have to monitor you know information and understand if they can keep going with their daily routine, or if they need to go to a safe place. So people have to navigate that the whole time. And some regions of the city will get more dangerous, and people might have to, you know, move in with a family member of their part of the city gets is too dangerous. And then going to church on a Sunday morning, obviously, if there's been an attack, you have to understand what public transportation is working, what public transportation might not be working that day. So but that becomes a part of daily life for people. And then there are other people in the church who are not from that city, so they will be, you know, people who are internally displaced. So these are people who are living somewhere where they've been provided housing, perhaps temporarily, oftentimes trying to use humanitarian aid, find humanitarian aid to take care of some of their more basic needs until they get more settled in the city. So there's a variety of people on a Sunday morning in this church in Kharkiv as well.

Mercy Ministry That Opens Gospel Doors

Brad Hertzog 16:17

w So let's think about the ministry in Ukraine and the doors that the Lord has opened up in this difficult providence. As we all in the US read the reports, watch the videos, kind of try to follow along and pray. I think from my perspective, it it seems obvious that diaconal work rightfully, as you might expect, sort of leads the way in a situation like this, the doors immediately open for all kinds of physical, temporal types of needs. It seems like, as we read the reports also and and watch some of the videos and things, it also seems like the ministry there, collectively, you all have been able to sort of balance word and deed. It's not that diaconal has just totally dominated. It's it seems like it's opened doors for word and deed. I'm not sure I might have the reference wrong when I think of the diaconate here in the US. We think of it might be Tim Keller's discussion or illustration of two wings of a plane, word and deed. I wondered if we all could talk about what you've seen in that, some of you in a limited sphere on this trip, some of you obviously living in it and David having made some more trips. David, I might start with you actually, because you're thinking about diaconal training and things like that here in the US, and you speak a number of times on different things. Maybe you're the right one to open this up, looking in from that perspective. What have you seen about how God has opened doors to minister to the believers and unbelievers, both in terms of diaconal work, but also seeing the diaconal work buttress or open the door for word? And then we'll get to Heero as well, who obviously has a much more specific perspective.

David Nakhla 18:06

Yeah, I think that when we were there, we learned that before the war, I don't know that any of the churches really had much of a diaconal ministry. As a matter of fact, deacons are hard to find in the churches. There may be a few, but when they were thrust into this war-like situation, as you said, diaconal is, you know, front and center, you can't avoid it. As in my role as disaster response coordinator, I see that every time a disaster happens, money comes pouring in because people, it's just the natural impulse, thankfully, of compassionate people is to give to the needs of God's people when they're suffering. And so that happened. And the church in Kharkiv, in particular, let me just speak to Mark Agarkov in particular, really rose to the occasion in many ways as a young man. He's 22, something like that, very young man at that time. Now he's 26 or so. But he just really used his gifts and abilities to organize, to communicate. And then that coupled with the work that MTW was also doing and helping to mobilize and gather resources and figure out what assets needed to be purchased. We need vans, you know, to truck things across the country, that type of thing. We need a warehouse. You know, there's all sorts of acquiring of different assets that they needed to carry out the work in a comprehensive and such a large-scale way. If you've ever seen any of the maps that show where Crates for Ukraine stuff, for instance, has been shipped all over the place. I mean, they have maps on their websites, and it's like you can't even count the dots. There's been so many shipments, and to do that kind of level of Ministry of Mercy has just required a ton of effort and organization and administration. But the church in Kharkiv have it has changed over the years. This has been a four-year effort now to minister to the needs as this war has continued. And so early on, we learned that Pastor Sergei was driving across the country every week with a van full of stuff, and then he would arrive on Wednesday and he would minister to his people in Kharkiv on Wednesday, and then he would head back to, I assume, with an empty van, or maybe he was taking people, I don't know, but he would head back and and then minister to his displaced church members who were on the opposite side of the country. And they did that for a number of years. Eventually they moved all back to Kharkiv. And then the ministry in Kharkiv has really the diakon ministry has really developed. I mean, we saw it in its in a significantly developed form. Very impressed by how the methods of dignifying the people that they're serving, not making them stand. I mean, eventually there was a time when people had to stand in line, or there was a time when people didn't stand in line and it was it was crazy. And it was and so they had to learn how to. How do we make it orderly? How do we make it not so desperate? How do we dignify the people by not having them stand out in the cold? And so they started giving them appointments times to come so that they wouldn't be in the cold. And and the the food that they provide, they intentionally provide good food, the food that you and I would like to eat, not just the cheapest stuff, but good quality food. And they've had to triage. That's a part of diaconal ministry, is is triaging and figuring out, you know, where are the needs the most. And we can't serve all. So how do we serve? Who who do we choose to serve? And then also the marrying of word and deed, as you talked about, that ultimately these tangible gifts are really should serve to point to that greatest gift of all, as they actually come from our Savior Jesus and to point these recipients, many of them from outside the church, to taste and see that the Lord is good beyond just this bread. You need that living bread, the bread of life. And so there's just lots of opportunities there. To in a sense leverage off of the Ministry of Mercy to demonstrate the compassion and mercy of Christ and point people to the gospel, to the church, and and they've done a great job of doing that. Everybody who comes to receive tangible things also will receive an invitation to church and even an explanation that this isn't just a humanitarian effort, but this is connected to a church and to the gospel, and that's explained to them. So yeah, I hope that answers that a little bit.

Brad Hertzog 22:30

Yeah, that's good. Chris, you kind of have, I think it's decades of experience as a deacon, 20 some years as a deacon, and now you uh guessing from knowing you 10 years maybe as a OPC pastor. So you've kind of got both eyes thinking about Ministry of Word, Ministry of Deed. Do you have anything to amplify or add that you kind of saw from that perspective of in a difficult circumstance, sort of watching Ministry of Mercy and deacon sort of lead the way, but then open doors to ministry of word?

Chris Cashen 23:01

Well, David covered a lot, but there are a couple of things maybe I can mention. Part of the compassion is was when there were women who were there receiving other women as they were handing out food and taking names, but they were also hearing the stories and they were hearing of the of the heartache, and they were hearing of loss, and maybe a husband that's gone off to war and is not coming back, and they were able to minister. Now we didn't hear these conversations, but we know that they took place. They were able to minister merely by listening to the stories of those who had come in who are suffering, and and just by their presence or demonstrating the compassion of Christ. And I know that there are others there who were involved in counseling, and uh so yeah, it starts with the food and and it and it continues on with the love of Christ being shown and poured out face to face, heart to heart. And that was just a wonderful thing to contemplate. We weren't there sitting at the seats with them, but we knew that was going on, and we heard the stories of those who had lost loved ones and uh coming with the need for uh someone to listen and to walk with them in their heartache, and that was happening there, and it's such a glorious thing to see. You know, we think of uh diaconal ministries as being very physical, but this was a diaconal ministry to the heart, and so it was just a glorious thing to see.

Brad Hertzog 24:31

Thank you. Stephen, the dynamic of kind of how diaconal ministries opens the door, but how these churches and Christians are then able to minister the word to people, especially from your perspective as a member in the church, not decades of service as a as an officer and kind of being thrown into this situation.

Stephen Majauskas 24:51

Yeah, seeing the women ministering there and then seeing those same women at church, and then learning later that they had been displaced themselves and seeing other displaced people at the church on Sunday was very impactful. And then to see one of the ladies serving at the church, serving sandwiches and so on, just to see her heart of joy and love in serving. And then also seeing them invite uh folks to come to their church. And I think they give out cards, you know, the street address or the website to the church, and watching that in real time and um hearing the it the impacts that they've made. But yeah, just seeing that in person was very impactful and a great blessing and makes me want to tell every person I can this is a great ministry, you should support this, and you know, you should pray for what they're doing. And it's a small church, probably by our standards, but they're doing a lot of great things for the kingdom, and they're they're persevering despite the war, and you know, despite quite a few people who've left the city. There's one story of a young lady who came back, she went to Canada, and then she came back uh to live there, and and she too was helping out doing mercy ministry, just meet some of those saints and see that was very impactful. And I think Pastor Sergei, he's a great preacher. He's got the heart of a teacher, definitely, you know, strong theologically and in preaching and teaching. But then just to know that the church is also doing this, um serving the community, uh being a light, it was great to see. Praise the Lord. Yeah.

Brad Hertzog 26:24

Thanks. Heero, along with a couple thoughts on the perspective of word and deed, could you also share some stories of how the diaconate labors have opened doors, whether you personally or stories that you've heard, just to uh give us a tangible picture of how this diaconal ministry has opened the doors to minister and word to people, whether they became believers or not, just things that stand out to you.

Heero Hacquebord 26:51

As far as my personal experience is concerned, we saw that at the beginning of the war when people moved to our city and we were able to care for them with meals and and housing. And there are several people who came to faith at that time, people who would not have been exposed to the gospel otherwise, but it was through the physical care of the church, helping to meet their physical needs, that they became interested or open enough to listen to the gospel and to come to our Bible studies. And the Lord used that to give faith to several people in our congregation. As far as crates for Ukraine is concerned, that has been more difficult to see that because the people we are helping are people who are distant from us. And so we have not been able to ourselves, you know, verbally bring the word to them along with the service. So what we've done is in the boxes we send, you know, we have a verse from Isaiah on there when we have the information of our church with the broadcasts of our worship service and also of our publishing house so people can order materials through that. And we did see a significant uptick in people watching our worship services online as we were sending out boxes with Christ for Ukraine and also materials being ordered from our publishing house. And there are various anecdotal stories of how people appreciated the aid they got so much, people who would not otherwise have any connection in particular with the Protestant church, because historically in Ukraine, we've had an uphill battle of just being accepted as a legitimate church if we're Protestant, because we're not the traditional church in Ukraine, which is Orthodox or maybe Catholic. But through this aid, people know that this is a Protestant church that's doing this. And they see that the Protestant churches, it helps them to see that Protestant churches, and in this case, in particular Reformed or Presbyterian churches, are not here to take advantage of people, as sometimes they have been told, but we are here to serve people. And I think that message is very important for people to see it. It comes through very tangibly, obviously, when people are being helped, especially when a lot of that help has come behind the lines of occupied Ukraine. As people, one lady, for example, received our help in a city in an occupied area, and she was so amazed that this aid reached her, and she made a point of looking us up. And then later, when she was able to get out of that city, she came to Lviv and brought us a gift here because she was so thankful for the help that she got from our church in particular. So I don't have stories of people coming to faith that I know of through this ministry, but there are different stories like that of people seeing, hey, this is a church that's helped me, and they have come to Lviv to say thank you, or they have started reading the Bible because of the Bible verse that's on the box, as one commander did with his whole unit. So there have been certainly some encouraging things that we have been able to track as the help has gone out.

Brad Hertzog 29:50

Yeah, it's great. It sounds like in eternity, as we unwind the stories of Providence, we're gonna hear that a number of people say I became a Christian believer be through the war and through this ministry. So that's encouraging to just get a little bit of a picture of that. Absolutely.

Fear, Safety And The Presence Ministry

Brad Hertzog 30:08

If we could maybe shift gears just a little bit, maybe broaden the picture a little bit. This was a dangerous trip, like by all accounts. I'm I'm sure you all would say that, but all you need to do is do a little bit of research to realize that heading this far east within uh I don't know how many miles of the Russian border is a dangerous trip. Many of us listening, many of us hosting this podcast might be prone to think this isn't a trip I would take along. Like this isn't something, this isn't in my nature to go to a dangerous place. We tend to keep that to ourselves because you're not supposed to say things like that, but a lot of listeners are thinking that. I wonder if you know, we think about that, we're grateful for you going, we pray, we we keep up to date, but it's just a little too tough, a little too scared to kind of do that type of thing. I wonder if we could talk about that a little bit from two angles. The idea of ministry in a dangerous place, uh-huh, like Heero is doing and uh these others. But also, secondly, for those listening that may not ever end up in a place like this, or may not ever minister in a place like this, or be a deacon in a place like this, what ministering in a dangerous place teaches you for about the reality of serving in that capacity and the reality for anybody to kind of be willing to take a step forward, whatever the challenge is, whatever the fearfulness is, if you're in the US or somewhere else, what did you guys learn from this trip? And how would you talk about the reality of a lot of people saying, boy, I don't, I don't know if I mean, yeah, I love Christ and I want the kingdom of force, but I don't know if I could do that. How would you talk about that? How would you think about it? What did this trip do for you? I don't need to pick somebody, I'll kind of open the door for somebody that hits hard and wants to jump right in.

Stephen Majauskas 32:09

So my thoughts is that we had a lot of people praying for us, a lot of saints, and uh my wife fully supported me going, which was tremendous. And uh our church commissioned me, they prayed over me, and you know, multiple people were praying for our trip. So, you know, knowing that the saints are praying, the Lord uses their prayers, and we're going to serve, we're going to be there, to have a ministry of presence, to be there in person, and then to have to jump through all these. You can't just fly there. You have to fly to the Polish border, you have to take a train or a car. It's just a long haul. It's a long traveling haul. And then you put in there's a war going on and there's risk and danger. Um, I I think you do have to, you know, discern that aspect of what's the risk and you know, is it wise, is it worth the risk, you know, work it through each one in their own conscience. But but then when you show up and you get there and they see you've come through all that and and you're there specifically for them, and then whatever else you bring, you know, in this case, um the Lord allowed us to do a mini conference for them. Um, each of the other brothers spoke at the end of Matthew and to have the ministry of the word, and then to be able to, you know, we see you, we hear you, uh, we're with you. You just you can't put a price tag on that, you know, and we're we're in it from a spiritual perspective. So yeah, I'm really thankful that I went and it could have been more risky that you know there Kyviv just got hit um over the weekend with a lot of missiles, and yeah, it's not safe, but there's a lot of risks and dangers just driving down the highway. So I'd encourage others to consider that. Just uh being there in person can be so encouraging, especially as the war has been going on for four years. So to have people show up and and and um I think that's they said it was a blessing, so we continue to pray that it will be and and was and so on. But those are some thoughts I had.

Brad Hertzog 34:10

Thanks, Stephen. Any other thoughts on the reality of going into a dangerous situation and kind of how it shapes your perspective on those realities in life?

Chris Cashen 34:20

I'll say that when I heard that David was going to Nigeria, I asked him initially, why are you going? And I still wasn't convinced about uh going to a dangerous place. But then he raised the the possibility of going to Ukraine. And as I listened to David speak about the ministry of presence and then considered that our Lord Jesus Christ came to a place of sin and misery, he came to a dangerous place to be present with us. He came to a place that was so dangerous that he knew that he would be killed. And we're called to follow Jesus, and so that kind of meditation upon our Savior and upon what he did and what David would say, as far as I know, his phrase, the ministry of presence that convicted me that I should go. And not that I want to pat myself on the back, as I certainly don't want to do that, but I was convicted that this was a good thing, a necessary thing, and I'm hoping that it would be encouraging to the deacons of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church because they do dangerous things. Now, maybe not going to Ukraine, but as our deacons minister, they're going into situations and engaging with people that are uncomfortable and certainly spiritually dangerous. And so I'm hoping that the trip here and what we bring back will be that ministry of presence which we'd be encouraging to the diaconate so that they can understand that part of what they're doing is ministering just by and through their presence. So encouraging, along with Stephen. I'm hoping that our presence there was, in fact, encouraging, because we were certainly blessed as we went and observed these who are suffering day in and day out, and yet they're so courageous, and they were calling us courageous. And I thought, no, no, no, it's not us. It's you all that are here and ministering to others in this situation. So I'm hoping that that's what we can bring back, and hoping that's that's what we are bringing back. It's just that ministry of presence and that importance and what a blessing it is to both both parties.

Brad Hertzog 36:49

Encouraging thoughts. Thanks. David, you've recently written on this a little bit. I know you've kind of thought about it some, and Chris just kind of mentioned your thoughts on the ministry of presence. Do you want to you want to open us up a little bit? How the danger factor, the fear factor fits in. You've gone on more trips than the other two, how it influenced you being in one of the most dangerous areas of Ukraine.

David Nakhla 37:13

Thanks, Brad. I'm also eager to hear from Heero, too, who lives day in and day out in Ukraine. I was definitely impacted when I had the opportunity to visit Nigeria in November. And I think it was actually during that trip that John Eide, with uh MTW's country director, indicated that there was an opportunity to go to Kharkiv. And that was very helpful timing in God's providence because in Nigeria, at that time, Nigeria was considered the most dangerous place in the world to be a Christian, was kind of the news. And we were there, I was there with Ben Hoppe as representatives of the OPC to visit the church there in Nigeria. I knew that they were very much encouraged by our visit because it was outwardly considered dangerous. I was also realized that oftentimes the things that we fear are not all that they're that we fear that they them to be. And I think that that's the danger of fear is that we create in our minds the worst case scenarios, and that's not reality. And so I found that as I had the opportunity to to face fears of going to visit, let's say, in Nigeria, that it was very informative to me, the nature of the danger. Looking at it from afar away, people would say, why would you ever go to Nigeria? But there's millions of people who live in Nigeria day in, day out. Yes, there are very difficult things that happen to some people, but to extrapolate that and say that that's going to happen to me, I think that's our tendency. And so we fear doing things. And that's where I think that, as Chris was saying, an application for deacons, I would like to encourage them to challenge themselves to be willing to face fears and go do difficult things in ministry and don't give in to those fears, but go do the things, particularly those things they're called to do. I don't think everybody's called to go visit Kharkiv. But if in God's providence, that's where you're being called to go to visit, maybe for some people to go move there, I don't know. But I think that we're in the best place when we're following the Lord's will. That's the safest place to be. And I had that sense when we when I was in Nigeria, and there was a we had a little bit of a situation that got a little bit uncomfortable. I felt this incredible peace that I f I didn't have a sense of fear. And I think that was very much because I felt like I was in the Lord's hand and I was exactly where the Lord wanted me to be. I think that as we've come out of COVID and all that type of stuff, I think that safety, I mean, we needn't we never used to say be safe, be safe, be safe, but that came out of COVID and everything's about safe. And I just wonder, is that even impacting our mission fields? You know? We're in the LPC, we're having a real hard time raising up missionaries. Or is this sense of safety, safety, safety so much a part of our ethos now? I guess I want to encourage our listeners, our deacons, to consider ways to break out of that, insofar as that's a part of affecting their ministry, that they push forward to do difficult things. And as Chris talked about, the ministry of presence is so powerful and to be with people. And there may be those people who, you know, you may feel uncomfortable going into their home or going and being with them or even talking to them because maybe, maybe they're maybe they have some disabilities that make you uncomfortable. But face those fears and face that awkwardness and approach various ministry situations and see what the Lord does with and through that. I can testify to the blessing that it has been to make some of these trips. Can't I can say that I was eager to have them over with in a sense, because I'd be on the backside of it. My wife certainly was, but and my son, uh some of my kids, but it really is a blessing to be able to grow in these areas and just would love to encourage others to do the same.

Brad Hertzog 41:23

Before I go to Heero, you three American men, some of you know me, just trying to keep it real for the people listening. Did you guys have any trouble sleeping at night leading up to it? Did you wake up anxious any day? Did you have wife, family members saying, maybe this isn't the best idea? Did you wake up saying, I I I kind of wish I wouldn't have done this? Yeah, uh no doubt you get through it, but did you have any of that? It's okay if you didn't. I'd just like people to hear an honest take from you guys who were making the journey.

David Nakhla 41:52

I can say that I'd think we'll do not have that, yeah.

Chris Cashen 41:55

Yeah, I don't recall having that. I do know that there are folks in my church who are asking me, Why are you going? Can't you just zoom? And she'd accomplish the same thing through Zoom, and I was saying, well, no, not really. And certainly there were concerns. My wife was concerned, again, as well with David's wife. My wife was glad to have me home. But I can't recall at a time when you know I woke up and said, Hey, maybe I shouldn't go. No.

Brad Hertzog 42:19

Well, that's helpful to hear those around you too. Stephen, any thoughts that you can share?

Stephen Majauskas 42:23

Yeah. For me, I met my wife, she's pretty solid, and and she was 100% for me going. And again, we had a lot of people praying for us, our church was praying for us. I think I was just more concerned wrestling with just the spiritual implications of the trip in terms of what our mission was from a spiritual perspective, and you know, being faithful to Christ in that it wasn't so much you know the danger or the threat, at least that's what I felt. But just knowing that, you know, the Lord has to bless the trip. And you know, we were going there spiritually to observe them and encourage them and desirous that the Lord would bless it, and you know, He has to bless it. And as we kept moving forward, it just seemed the Lord kept opening the doors. It seemed for a while that a door wouldn't be open to do this, and then all of a sudden the Lord opened the door and things kept falling into place. We kept praying. And so, yeah, thankful that the Lord brought us through. And then again, you're there, and you know, this is what the saints there are going through on a regular basis. And so just being able to taste and participate with them and what they're going through and is a special gift and opportunity.

Brad Hertzog 43:28

Heero, you live this every day, but there's still a certain sense in which you didn't sign up for this. I mean, you did because you had a call to ministry and you went to a foreign mission field, but you know, the war over the last four years is different. I just wonder how that whole perspective shapes how you now think about, talk about serving the Lord, serving his kingdom, you know, where maybe, you know, you could have been a church planter in the United States and nobody would have asked any questions. You're dealing with a much more comfortable setting. But that's not where you are. How does that shape how you think about ministry and what the Lord's doing and how you encourage others to think about it?

Heero Hacquebord 44:07

Yeah, uh good question. You know, we don't want to put ourselves in a dangerous situation unnecessarily. That's just foolhardy. But the world is a dangerous place. And if we say there are some parts of the world we will not go to because they are dangerous, then we are really limiting what we are willing to do and where we're willing to go as the church of Christ. There were many people who told us at the beginning of the war to get out of Ukraine, but the church here would have had a very hard time if we left and it would have just communicated that we don't care for the church, you know, we care more for our own safety, which I don't think is what Jesus Christ is all about. And if we look at the book of Acts, especially the Apostle Paul, there are certainly situations where he avoided unnecessary danger, but he experienced so much danger that he, of course, lists later on in Second Corinthians, and that's part of the calling. You know, that's part of the calling to follow Christ and to bring his word to the nations. So we cannot take those countries that are dangerous off the map and say, you know, sorry. But in those places that are dangerous, people are oftentimes so much more receptive. You know, that's where oftentimes the church grows the most. And so maybe that's we should think about those places first of all in some ways, rather than just trying to choose the places that are dangerous. And as far as danger is concerned, danger is is relative. I mean, Lviv, yes, we get attacks sometimes, but there are certain parts of Chicago that are much more dangerous than Lviv, or as Stephen was saying, driving on the highway United States. You know, you can incur a lot of danger there. So using the word dangerous, it's a very broad word and it can mean different things to different people. People from the far east of Ukraine move to Kharkivkiv because it's a safe city to them. People from Kharkivkiv move to Kyiv because that's a safe city to them. People from Kiev moved to Lviv because it's a safe city for them. So, you know, how far do you want to go before you get to a safe place? There is no safe place. So I think what's much more important is where the Lord is opening doors for us to serve, and then different people have different thresholds as well. You know, I can't judge somebody else for not being willing to do, you know, something that I might do, or or vice versa. Um, so the Lord gives us different gifts and and he calls us to different places.

Brad Hertzog 46:30

That's a fascinating illustration that I've not thought of, but only you living there would think of. People moving slightly further west and thinking it's safer. That's that's a fascinating picture that I'll remember of this topic and this question. Thanks for

A Bigger View Of God’s Kingdom

Brad Hertzog 46:44

that. Chris, I have a question. I'm gonna pick you to answer it. I was thinking about the three Americans, so I might not go around the whole room. But when you go on a trip like this, I wonder if you'd share a couple thoughts, big picture about how it changes your view of what God is doing in his kingdom and with the gospel. I think everybody here in this conversation probably knows that one of the great testimonies of people who go on a short-term mission trip or who go somewhere for the first time, they come back and they just have a change perspective on who God is and what he's doing. You know, they've maybe never been outside the US and then they're in Africa for a week or something like that. Particularly two of you, Chris, you, and Stephen, experienced that in a one-off trip to eastern Ukraine. I wonder if you'd share some thoughts, how it changes your view, even in just a week-long trip, about what God is doing with his kingdom and the gospel.

Chris Cashen 47:41

Well, certainly that the Lord is working all over. And we tend to have a very limited view in our own cultures, in our own churches, in our own communities, that this is where the Lord's working. But that's just not the case. He is active throughout the globe, and we get a chance to see that in Ukraine as we saw the believers, brothers and sisters in Christ, coming together to hear the word of God, to rejoice in what Christ is doing. Only because they were speaking a different language and singing in a different language were we not able completely to fellowship with them. But we saw that they were fellowshipping with it. God was working in their hearts and the spirit was moving powerfully. And so it was certainly an eye-opening experience to see how the Lord is worshipped throughout this entire globe and how we're connected in unity with brothers and sisters, even 20 miles from the Russian border, who are suffering under the ravages of war. It was just a great blessing to see that and to see how the Lord is moving, powerfully moving, and bringing more and more lost sinners to himself, especially in the midst of persecution and war. So, yeah, it was a great blessing. Thank you for asking that question.

Brad Hertzog 49:05

Okay, all four of you, let's think about the listeners of this

How To Pray and Donate

Brad Hertzog 49:10

podcast. I don't know how many listeners the Reformed Deacon gets. Let's assume it's several hundred to a thousand, maybe more, because of the nature of this topic. I'd like you to offer some thoughts about how the ministry in Ukraine affects those listeners, regardless of where they are. Remember, a lot of them are going to be deacons in the OPC, but there's going to be members, Christians, other officers, pastors. And I want you to think of things in two areas, and I'll remind you of the two areas if you get one way and we don't hit the other. Number one, how can the listeners of this podcast support this ministry in Ukraine? We have, by all human accounts, a remarkable ministry going on that the OPC is able to support. How can people support that? And let's make it tangible. Let's talk about prayer, financial support, and otherwise, but also is there an opportunity? Do we need people going there? Do we need deacons visiting? I don't know the answer to that. I'm just posing it for all four of you. And number two, the fact that we're not only connected to this ministry in the OPC, but we own it. That's one of the great things about worldwide outreach. When we say Hiro is an OPC missionary to Ukraine, we're saying he's ours. Like we are in this, we own this. But a lot of those people aren't going to be going to Ukraine. What should they take from this ministry to Ukraine, your trip that you just made, and as they follow and pray, that they can work out in their lives? We've touched on some of that, but those are the two areas I'd like you to talk about. How can we support the ministry and what can we take that God is doing through the OPC to its churches, to its members, to its officers, that should direct and encourage them in the whole work of the kingdom and the gospel? So that's a pretty wide open field for you. Who's lit up by that question and wants to jump in?

David Nakhla 51:13

I'll begin. Well, one of my main objectives in making this trip was because the work in Kharkivkiv in particular has been where the bulk of the Ukraine crisis funds have been sent in the last two years. And it is the nature of the ministry that's happening there is just so similar to what diaconal ministry looks like in our churches with regards to concern for the most vulnerable, the widows, the women, the orphans, the children, elderly, infirmed, and with ministry of food and clothing and you know, just very tangible. So we have loved what we've seen. The reporting has been good. We sent enough funds that we felt like it was time for a visit, check in and see it closer and encourage them. We were very encouraged by what we saw, but the Ukraine crisis fund has basically almost run dry. This has gone on for a long time. And so the giving to it has significantly decreased. And so this is an opportunity for local deacons who are sitting on a lot of funds and wondering where to use them. This is a vibrant diaconal ministry that is active and happening right now. And if you contributed to the Ukraine Crisis Fund, this is where 99% chance this is where your funds will go, those designated to the Ukraine Crisis Fund. And so that's my commitment in going both in February when I went to Kyiv and when I went to Kharkivkiv was to come back with a commitment to encourage the people to pray and to give. And so that's what I would say is that there is an opportunity here. And please continue to pray because I think that one of the values, again, of going and the ministry of presence is that people feel forgotten. This has gone on so long that they feel isolated and forgotten. And as far as I understand, we were the second visitors to that church from outside of Kharkive area to come and visit them in the four years this has gone on. And you can feel forgotten. And so please continue to pray for them. They really, really value those prayers. And the Lord does work powerfully through prayers. He has preserved his saints there. Even many, many men, maybe even some women, I don't know, from the Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Ukraine, have had to serve. And as far as I know, none have yet been killed. There have been some casualties. When I was in Kyiv, we met a man who'd been an elder in the church who lost a part of his leg stepping on a mine. But the Lord preserved his life, and actually his comrades went through great danger to bring him back to safety, and then he's recovering. So the Lord is really answering prayers for safety and care of his people, and just definitely encourage everybody to continue to pray.

Brad Hertzog 54:14

Steven, you're in an interesting situation. You come back from this trip, you're about to start a year-long diaconal internship at your local church in Michigan, which by my last count is quite a ways away from eastern Ukraine. How does this trip change how you think about serving in that capacity? I know you're not in a position to speak to other longtime deacons, but how does it change how we think about the diaconate here and the different ways that we serve? How does it has it changed that? The whole Ukraine ministry.

Stephen Majauskas 54:46

Yeah, thanks. That's a great question. I think the short answer might be it works. And what I mean by that is just seeing the Mercy ministry happening in real time and being able to participate a little bit in that, but mostly just observe for a couple hours and just hear the context of how they're doing it, what that looks like, and just how the Lord has blessed that and used that, and also the good reports from that. I mean, what we were told is that non-Christians in the city know that this is a great place to come to get good aid. You know, it's kind of by word of mouth that this is a great place to come and to see how they're seeking to do it, as David said, in a dignified manner. And yeah, seeking to bring God glory. These are people made in God's image against the backdrop of, you know, the horrors and the evil of the war machine, and to see them receive love in Christ's name in tangible ways, but then also to have that invitation to church and you know, this is being given on behalf of Christ was really, really yeah, powerful for for me to see. And then, yeah, and then just to see the other needs of the church and to know about them and the other prayer requests, Pastor Sergei is essentially, he's the pastor right now, and essentially we probably most likely would not have gone to the city of Kharkiv to this church if it wasn't for the war, right? This is all in the context of the war, but it's also in the context of the church. We came because the church is there and they're ministering in Christ's name, and we came to encourage and support them and see what they're doing. But then just to know what are the other needs of the congregation. And and one of the prayer requests is that they need elders to labor, and not just in Kharkiv, but what we were informed of is in some of the other churches too, in Kiev and in Lviv. There's a need for elders. And so just seeing the mercy ministry, but then also knowing that there's other needs, you know, to be able to come back and share that and and consider what the ministry of the church looks like as a whole, I think was helpful for me to yeah, just going in person. You can read about it all day long or hear the reports on the radio or or whatnot or watch videos. But when you when you go there in person, a lot more sinks in. It's a lot more real and it's a lot more helpful to categorize things. And yeah, if there's an opportunity to go back, I'd want to go. And I'd definitely encourage saints, deacons to consider going and seeing what they're doing. I think it would be an encouragement to them, you know, just as the war continues. I think in a sense they have what they need in terms of the ministry that they're doing, but just to bring extra encouragement, again, that ministry of presence, you're not forgotten. We see what Christ is doing through you. We see how you're laboring on behalf of Christ to those that are lost, to those that you know have faced the horrors of war, that they're persevering, they're seeking to adapt. Um, like Pastor Chris said, they put shrapnel resistant film on their windows, they have a generator, they have um maybe solar panels too on on top of their building. They're trying to use whatever means they can to stay there and and to continue to minister on behalf of Christ. It was encouraging and inspiring. And I think there's another group actually that's going to go in August. Um we could pray for them, but great, great.

Brad Hertzog 57:55

Chris, if you happen to be in David's position and you were traveling around the presbyteries and talking to Presbyterian diaconates and talking to local diaconates, what would you tell them about their service in their local churches that you kind of got a glimpse of as you made this trip and as you broaderly speaking know about the ministry in Ukraine? What would you tell our OPC diaconates here to help them either be encouraged or directed about the work that they do?

Chris Cashen 58:24

It's already been said, but the Mercy Ministry there had a mindset, a philosophy of uh ministering to those made in the image of God and thus with dignity. And that caused me to think about what I had done personally. I'll just confess this, as we were ministering to uh refugees in Clarkston, there was a time that we were handing out food, and my thought was we're just gonna put things in the boxes uh which we think folks need and which we think they can use, but you know, maybe not the best. And this thought of you're ministering to those made in the image of God and they deserve good food, it it just struck me that you know, that's right. We should be doing that. And as our deacons serve, it's easy to get into the mindset of I'm giving you something you should be thankful for, as opposed to I want to give you something that you'll enjoy because you're made in the image of God. And I want you to know that I revere the Lord and I love you. And so it's just a different way to approach the iconal ministry. And I was just I was struck by that when we were there.

Brad Hertzog 59:43

That's great, Chris.

How to Support the Ministry in Ukraine

Brad Hertzog 59:44

Thanks. That's powerful. Heero, it's become too common for us Americans. Ukraine is in a war with Russia, we get the updates, we're thankful, we pray. How can we, as the OPC and others who may be listening, how can we support you, your church, the Christians, the ministry, and the going forth of the temporal needs and the word. We hope it ends soon, but however many days it keeps going, and we pray that it ends soon, how can we continue to support you now that it's gotten too common for us to hear about it?

Heero Hacquebord 1:00:16

Yeah, thank you, Brad. I will say again, pray. When people pray, God moves. Not because he is, you know, at our beck and call, but because that is what he has ordained. He reacts and responds to our prayers. I need people's prayers because I need the Lord's power and he gives it to us through the church's prayers. So please do pray for me, for other pastors, for our churches and for the country. Please continue to give. And when you are giving, think about the Ukraine Crisis Fund as well. The money makes a real difference, a tangible difference in people's lives, as people have heard, I hope, through this podcast. Um, and then also we need more teaching elders in Ukraine who can become missionaries here, who can be leaders of church planting teams and help to plant churches. We have a great need for more churches to be planted, and we do still need missionaries here as well, as well as in many other countries in the world. Life is not about being comfortable. Life is about being faithful to Jesus Christ and to his call. And it is oftentimes in those situations where we are stretched the most that we learn most to trust him and when our faith becomes much more precious to us.

Closing and Thanks

Brad Hertzog 1:01:32

A fitting place to end. Thanks for that hero. As a somebody listening in, it's a sobering podcast, it's an encouraging podcast, it's an eye-opening podcast. So I think listeners will find the same range of engagement and emotion. So thank you to all four of you for taking the time now to talk about it. For the three of you from America that went over, thanks for taking that initiative and going. Heero for being willing to serve the Lord for it day in and day out. Thanks from all of us for doing that. We know it's not in your strength, but nonetheless, you and your family and the people that you're serving with are doing it. So we appreciate all of you. Thank you, David, Chris, and Stephen, as well as Heero for being here with us and joining me on the podcast today. We appreciate your wisdom and your encouragement in this area of serving.

David Nakhla 1:02:24

Thank you. Thanks so much. And thank you, Brad.

Brad Hertzog 1:02:27

Thanks, Brad. Deacons, we hope that this episode was helpful to you and will be an encouragement to you in your labors for the Lord.

David Nakhla 1:02:35

Thanks so much for joining us. Special word of thanks to our producer, Trish Dugan, who works faithfully behind the scenes to bring this podcast to you. Be sure to visit our website, thereformdeacon.org, where you'll find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And we hope you'll join us again soon for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.