Welcome And Introductions

Nathan Trice 0:00

When I'm sitting at a deacon meeting and I am watching my brothers respond to a emerging material need, perhaps one that seems to be settling into a long-standing material need by a member or household of a church, and one of the deacons says, hmm, I think there's some immaturity here. And then they ask the question, who is so-and-so's shepherding elder?

David Nakhla 0:25

Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, an actual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone. So let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode.

Chris Cashen 0:45

Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast. My name is Chris Cashen, and I serve as pastor at the Presbyterian Church of Cape Cod in West Barnesville, Massachusetts. And I also serve on the OPC's Committee on Diaconal Ministries. And it's a privilege to be here this morning with two guests. First is Reverend Nathan Trice, and then the second is Deacon Jeff Roach. Let me quickly introduce our good brothers and get to our topic this morning. Nathan has served as the senior pastor of resurrection, which used to be Matthew's Resurrection Presbyterian Church in Matthews, North Carolina since 1996. He also served for nine years on this committee, the Committee of Diaconal Ministries of the OPC, and served very well. Nathan is married to his dear wife of 28 years, Ashley, and they have five beautiful children. In addition to enjoying travel with his family around the country, and I've enjoyed listening to uh their escapades and their A-liner, Nathan's become a recent enthusiast for all things related to being a grandfather. So welcome, Nathan.

Nathan Trice 1:52

Chris, thank you. I'm very pleased with what the CDM is doing with these podcasts, and it's a privilege.

Chris Cashen 1:58

And now just very quickly to Jeff. Jeff, you were ordained as a deacon at Resurrection in 2006, 20 years ago this year. You're married to Erica since 2000, and you have a son and daughter together with your dear wife. You're a trained economist for a global financial company, and uh you and your family enjoy experiencing international cultures and doing just about anything outdoors. That's very interesting. So welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Roach 2:27

Well, thanks to be back on today.

Chris Cashen 2:30

Well, it's good for both of you to take time to be with us today. Uh today we're going to be discussing a really significant topic, uh, in my estimation, that's the cooperation between the diaconate and the session. In our Presbyterian tradition, we recognize three offices, minister, ruling, elder, and deacon, which are organized into two separate yet connected groups, the session and the diaconate. Now, while I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think we have the word session in the scriptures, but we do see a plurality of elders, and our Book of Church Order describes this session as the governing body of the local church, consisting of the pastor, other ministers, and ruling elders. And they're charged with maintaining the government of the congregation, and it's overseeing all the matters concerning the conduct of public worship, promoting spiritual growth, and so it's got a broad tasking. The deaconate, as we've said before on this podcast, are called to show forth the compassion of Christ in a manifold ministry of mercy toward the saints, those in the church, as well as strangers. And our Book of Church Order also calls our deacons, assuming there's more than one in a particular church, to be constituted as a board of deacons to oversee that mercy of ministry. So during this episode, we're going to discuss how these two ecclesiastical groups can and really must work together well in serving the church. Before we get into our discussion questions, Nathan, would you pray for us?

Nathan Trice 4:05

Happy to do that. Thank you. Let's pray. Father, we are thankful for your love that is holistic, both our body and our soul embraced by that love. And we're thankful for a Savior that exemplified that in his earthly ministry, both teaching and healing, word and deed. We're thankful that you love us this way and that you have called your church to exemplify that love by both elders and deacons. And we pray that uh the fruit of these few minutes together might be an even uh greater uh adornment of your gospel in our local churches by the ministry close and harmonious of both elders and deacons uh in our churches. Lord, grant this. We pray and bless these moments. Uh, we ask for Jesus' sake. Amen.

Chris Cashen 5:01

Thank you, brother. Thank you. So let me start with uh kind of a setting the table question. Brother, some of our listeners may be wondering why this topic should interest them. So, Nathan, could you give us a picture of of what things look like if elders and deacons are not cooperating well in the local church?

Nathan Trice 5:21

Very good. We'll start with that, and maybe that will be uh a good way to address what sh what it should look like. I suspect, Chris, that in any number of congregations where there's peace and general harmony, a lack of cooperation between the elders and deacons could kind of look like something sleepy, I'll say it that way. Each one doing their own thing, you might say, elders doing their work, deacons doing their work, and all the culture of that local church. But if there's not communication and cooperation in an ongoing way, I'm inclined to think that that won't stay sleepy, so to speak, that contention can arise, especially if deacons are ambitious and earnest and energetic in their ministry. They're looking for opportunities to serve Christ in their office. If there's not cooperation, if there's not communication between the elders and deacons, that will inevitably result in some kind of conflict or uh getting into each other's lanes. And uh I think that's unfortunate what happens, uh, especially when good men are both trying to do uh good work in the church. The topic that we're talking about here is really important if there is already tension uh in a local church between elders and deacons, but it's uh especially strategic if there's not that tension, but there's an opportunity to be proactive in establishing that kind of cooperation to uh make sure that doesn't arise.

Chris Cashen 6:51

Well, Nathan, you've uh you've convinced me it's important that we hear this. And uh I'm really anxious to hear uh both of you discuss uh since you've been working together for quite some time in the same church, in the same local church, I'm anxious to hear how this how this comes together, how this cooperation comes to pass and the benefit it is to the church.

Acts 6 And A Clear Division

Chris Cashen 7:14

Well, Jeff, in Acts chapter six, and we go to this passage quite often on this podcast, Dr. Luke there sets forth that complaint of the Hellenists, the widows, who weren't receiving their daily distribution. And as a result, we see the the church at the direction of the apostles then uh selecting seven men, a good repute, full of spirit and wisdom, who are appointed to serve tables. And that's the kind of the wording, the language we use with regard to uh mercy ministry. So what can we learn, Jeff, about the elder deacon cooperation from this account set forth in Acts six?

Jeff Roach 7:54

Yeah, I think there are a couple really great things we can pull out of this. I I will say, just going back to our intro, Pastor Trice and I have indeed been growing old together the last 20 years. Uh, we both recently celebrated some birthdays relative to this recording. So I have to say something of that nature. But there are three things I think. One is when there's good cooperation, I think you can see the the benefit of going straight to the church. So it helps the church is happy when there's cooperation. Think about this clear division. So elders prioritizing prayer and preaching, deacons leading in stewardship and mercy ministry. So that's one thing. I think there's a clear division of responsibilities, I think sets the stage for strengthening the church. I think second, there's a mutual trust that allows these two entities to flourish and do what they're supposed to do. Elders trust deacons with the responsibility. Again, that's the the if there is good cooperation, there's a level of trust uh that's underlying that. Deacons supporting elders' ministry rather than competing with it. And I think third point is uh working together promotes unity and mission. So think about uh right after this section of Acts 6, 1 through 4, Acts 6 verse 7 says the word of God continued to increase and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly. So good cooperation brings some real fruit. So I'll I'll leave it at that, and we could probably unpack a little bit more as we discuss some of the underlying trust that's needed between sessions and diaconates.

Chris Cashen 9:40

Jeff, I'm really glad you brought out the truth of trust. Uh we we see that in in this passage as the apostles give this work over to these men, and we don't read of it again. And so that that is just a wonderful picture of that trust. I'm glad you brought that forth.

Delegation

Chris Cashen 9:58

Well, Nathan, as we took a very, very quick look at the description of the session in our book of church order, we know that the session ultimately has responsibility for everything within the church. But assuming that a particular local church does have deacons, and assuming that the session recognizes the need to delegate to the diaconate, how can delegation by elders to deacons, well, let's first ask, how can it be done badly? And then we'll follow it up with how can it be done well?

Nathan Trice 10:30

I concur with what my brother Jeff was just saying. I think in Acts 6 you have that dynamic that's so fundamental to the cooperation between the leaders of the church in the in Acts 6, its apostles becomes elders and with their ministers and the deacons. It's interesting that the New Testament doesn't have a lot to say with specificity about responsibilities of deacons, although mercy ministry is a huge theme in the Bible, Old Testament to New Testament, and Acts 6 makes clear that the elders are especially seeking the assistance of deacons in that area. But I think that kind of delegation we're calling it can be quite broad and could be anything that leadership in the church needs to take care of, but that would distract pastors and elders from their priority, which is the ministry of word and prayer. So that that means that delegation means elders recognizing they need the ministry of deacons, and that they need to entrust the deacon's ministry weighty things. I think that's the first way that delegation can be done badly is to merely delegate to deacons the trivial things or what comparatively seems trivial. You don't need to be a deacon to unlock the doors on Sunday, but you need to be an officer full of the spirit and of wisdom to wade into a little church controversy concerning widows and their being supported by the church and to minister in that very challenging situation. You need to be a man full of wisdom and the spirit. And so I think over the years I have heard people who've come from a wide variety of other churches come to resurrection and observe more than once, I guess I'd say, wow, the elders really ask a lot of the deacons. They delegate to the deacons everything from the whole budgeting process of the church to serve the elders in that capacity and the church as a whole that way, to some really challenging situations of need in the congregation that involve both spiritual and material needs. So it can be done badly by not being done enough. I could say it that way. I also think that there is an opportunity the elders have in delegating things to deacons to say, brothers, we need more than just your time and energy on this project, but we need your wisdom. Can you advise us? Can you look at this for us and bring us back your wisdom on this issue so that we can decide well in the congregation? And I think that also makes a good use of the gifts and graces of the deacons.

Chris Cashen 13:39

Our deacons are filled with the spirit and filled with wisdom. And as you move down into doing things well, uh just a really value that uh that statement that uh the elders need the wisdom of the deacons, and asking them to advise is so critical. Thank you so much. Well, Jeff, that brings us to just uh touch upon the nature of the ministry of the diaconate.

Mercy Ministry Is Shepherding

Chris Cashen 14:11

And we know that uh deacons are charged to show forth the compassion of Christ and so what is it about the nature of mercy ministry that really requires a partnership with the elders?

Jeff Roach 14:28

Right. So I think fundamentally we could say you know, this mercy ministry does involve shepherding. It's not just distribution of funds. So that you know, by definition, knowing that the physical needs, spiritual needs are intertwined, deacons and elders have to be working hand in glove as deacons support the overall shepherding needs. So that's one thing that's probably worth a whole podcast in and of itself. Second, there's a lot of wisdom about priorities that are required. So you think about mercy ministry, there's this inequality between the Hellenist and the Hebrew widows, and there was a perceived overlooking, uh, so a sense of injustice being done. So elders help ensure that this mercy ministry is reflecting priorities of the church, promoting the peace and unity of the church, those big picture items that's intertwined here with the Nature Mercy Ministry. And then, of course, thinking about the long-term goal. One of the things that's been really enjoyable to see over the decades is the ability for us and the diaconate, those in the session, to work through and and think about the five-year, ten-year, maybe shorter, two the two-year plan. Uh, I think that's that's helpful. And then finally, just to highlight, there is a sense that mercy ministry does often uncover pastoral concerns. Think about financial hardships. So many times that is uh connected to other deeper rooted items. So when you ask about the nature of mercy ministry, a lot there uh and definitely a lot connected to pastoring and shepherding that the deacons have to be working in supporting the goal of the shepherds of the church.

Nathan Trice 16:28

Yeah, if I can just piggyback on that, I think this is one of those areas in our understanding of biblical realities where we can distinguish things that just can't be separated. So we can distinguish between ministry of word, ministry of deed, we can distinguish between the needs of the soul and the needs of the body, but they happen to be in the same individuals that are, as long as life allows, those are inseparable. And so those two offices that are that have their priorities in those two areas have to work closely together because they're so inseparable in the individuals we're ministering to. You know, there are certain circumstances where let's say a house tragically burns down, but everyone is okay, but there's just immense material need. Okay. That may be a pure material need at the outset, but very, very quickly spiritual needs come, maybe, maybe immediately, uh, we could say. And so there's obvious cooperation needed. In the more typical situation, material needs Jeff was touching on this, can be present in the life because of spiritual immaturity and so on. So it's just that we're whole persons. And so these two elements of ministry have to be closely coordinated because we're ministering to the same people.

Chris Cashen 17:58

Yeah, so I appreciate your you're saying this word and deed ministry. We speak of them sometimes separately, but you're saying they really can't be separated. Very good. I I appreciate that. Yeah.

Nathan Trice 18:12

The elder can't say to someone, you know what, uh, your physical needs are not my concern. That's a deaconal matter. And conversely, the deacons are from the get-go, as offices in the church, they're doing spiritual ministry. They don't just say, Oh, wait, you have a soul need, I'm gonna refer that to the elders. No, they also are involved in counsel and encouragement and all those things that meet the needs of the of the soul. All right, I'll stop interrupting.

Linking Needs To Long-Term Plans

Chris Cashen 18:44

This is good. Jeff, you mentioned this when we're talking about the nature of mercy ministry, that you need the elders to understand the priorities of the church, long-term goals. I'm interested in digging into that just a hair more. Many times, deacons, I think, I do myself, when we think of mercy ministry, we think of a one-off event and this is just this situation, and then we're done with it. And it really doesn't it doesn't affect the church in general, it doesn't affect our long-term plans, but you're saying it does. And so I'm just interested to know, has there been an instance where you can recall that an instance of mercy ministry where you engaged with the the elders and you understood, oh, yeah, this fits in with our goals and and what we're doing, and it all comes together. Have you had an event like that?

Jeff Roach 19:38

Well, I think in the experience of our church here in Matthews, North Carolina, we did experience something like that in the in the recent past. You think about uh going back to the Book of Church Order, talking about other forms of service for the church may also be committed to the deacons by the session. In our particular covenant community, the deacons do a lot with the general fund of the church, not just the deacon fund. And one of the things that we were working through is enhancing our campus. So as of now, August 2026, we have two new additional buildings on our property that didn't exist in just two years ago, two and a half years ago. And one of the discussion items in previous years were all about, hey, tell us, deacons, do do some research for us and report back what's your recommendation? Can we can we build? Is this now a good time? It's not a good time. Should we say no? Should we say wait? Should we say later? I think that's one example uh in the recent past where it really was a part of a longer-term planning process and obviously very important to the life of the church.

Practical Structures That Build Trust

Chris Cashen 20:53

Yeah, that's wonderful. Nathan, uh, can you think of uh some practical and structural ways in which the session and the diaconate of resurrection have worked together closely, that relationship has been established. How have you done that? Because I'm I'm assuming we've got deacons listening that, oh, you know, I'd really like to have that close cooperation and you men have it. And so what are some of the practical things you've done to bring that to pass? Yeah.

Nathan Trice 21:23

So structures aren't everything, but they tend to be what support the actual culture of cooperation. So I'll start. Here's a structural item Presbyterians love dockets. Dockets for session meetings and deacon meetings. Um, first of all, deacons should be having dockets if uh that needs to be said. But then on the docket, there should be a place where the session, in some capacity or another, is reporting to the deacons, updating them on the things that the session is doing. That the deacons need to be aware of because there's potential overlap of their ministry. And then also coming from the session to the diaconate with those requests for input or those items to be delegated. So on the docket at resurrection, there is a sessional representative for that portion of the meeting that is coming and bringing a report from the session to the deacons. Likewise, on the session docket, there's a portion of that docket where there's a deacon representative who's coming to the session and they're reporting on the work of the deaconate and they're bringing the input the session requested, or they're there as the session sort of uh deliberates on things that it might need to send back to the deacons for their assistance. And so that deacon is representing the deaconate and can take that back to the deacons. So speaking in terms of structures, deacons need to take minutes of their meetings if they aren't already. And those minutes ought to routinely be submitted to the session. That makes the session aware of the good work of the deaconate, not just for reasons of oversight, but also to be informed. Is so-and-so in the church receiving financial assistance? Well, that's something elders, particularly a shepherding elder, needs to be aware of as they continue to uh shepherd that same so-and-so. Jeff just made reference to our big undertaking at resurrection, a church-building project, and that involved some joint meetings by elders and deacons, just doing the hard but good brainstorming work together. And all those are structural things that can become part of the life of the church, and on those structures, a whole culture of cooperation can develop.

Jeff Roach 23:50

And I'll just add too, Chris. The BCO, Book of Church Order, uh does talk about the deacon submitting its records to the session once every three months. We as deacons report and submit our records every month. No need to wait. Uh we we want to be a lot closely uh connected here. We don't want too much time to pass. But there are a couple of practical considerations in addition to those big items like building fund and building project and all of the work there. And then the more mundane, as Nathan just mentioned, the line item on the dock, each of those dockets. But I'll give three quick examples that I think illustrate a really good and build a culture of cooperation. Uh, we're in the process of going through deacon certifications. The session is. Well, months and months ago, the session came to the deacons and said, Who should we approach? What are your thoughts? And then, of course, a few months passed and the session said to deacons, well, here's some names. What are let's have a discussion. So a very close culture of cooperation in the relation to deacon elections. I think that was very well received from the deaconate, knowing that our session does desire that culture of cooperation. I think second, of course, in addition to new elections, that example, another example, of course, the budget. We've already touched on that, so I won't spend too much time there, but deacons often are the uh we are the first mover in developing a new budget. We, as deacons just met in the not too recent past, started fleshing out our 2027 draft. We're not too soon, thinking about the 2027 draft. And then the third example I want to share, uh, Session came to the deacons recently with a request. How can the deacons, or if the deacons, are interested in presenting various forms of stewardship items in our Sunday school time. So Session was interested in having the deacons present on various topics in the realm of stewardship. So I think those are three examples at resurrection where the session has developed continued uh culture of cooperation for which the deacons are very thankful and appreciative.

Nathan Trice 26:17

Chris, I'll share that when I'm sitting in on a deacon meeting and I am watching my brothers respond to a emerging material need, perhaps one that seems to be settling into a long-standing material need by a member or household in the church. And one of the deacons says, hmm, I think there's some immaturity here. And then they ask the question, who is so-and-so's shepherding elder? And when they ask that question, I love to hear that, because the deacons are recognizing we want to sync up with that particular elder as we move towards that individual or family and in the council that needs to come with the material assistance. And I love that. Of course, a resurrection, all the members have a shepherding elder. We divide the congregation into shepherding elders, and the deacons do something similar in that if there is someone with a need that is long-term, that person will have a point of contact with the diaconate, a certain deacon. So they'll have that person will have not only a shepherding elder, but a deacon contact. And those two men often are just informally conferring together in their ministry to that person. I love that. And that's not a structured thing, it's just part of the culture.

Fellowship Beyond Church Business

Chris Cashen 27:37

That's wonderful. Well, man, you've been discussing what we really need to hear, and that is the functioning of the church and the interaction and the business of the church uh by and through the diaconate and the session. I'm wondering, I'm gonna throw you a little bit of a curveball. I'm wondering if the session and diaconate ever get together and we're not talking about church things. We're just gonna fellowship. Does that ever happen at Resurrection? I'm just I don't know if it does or not, but I'm just throwing it out there.

Nathan Trice 28:09

Oh, it could happen more. What comes to my mind are events in around the Christmas season in the years past where we have uh done just that thing. But we we could do that more. I think that's fair.

Chris Cashen 28:22

Well, it's so important for uh for us to fellowship, certainly as the body of Christ. But then I think also, as you may have been describing, this close interaction, this culture of cooperation. Oh, what an opportunity just to get together as brothers in Christ and just to fellowship with one another.

Real Cases Of Shared Care

Chris Cashen 28:40

Well, man, we do have some podcast episodes that are just dedicated to real-life cases, and uh they seem to be very instructive and helpful to our diaconate. So I'm wondering if each of you could give us, if you can, one example of a ministry situation where elders and deacons uh cooperated, and that cooperation was essential. Can you think of one?

Jeff Roach 29:05

Well, I can think of one we're uh discussing and working through. Uh so many times uh a diaconal request uh comes in and we think it might be a triage moment, right? So it's a one-off. And in so many cases, it's more than just a one-off, it's a development opportunity. And this is where, as deacons, we quickly realize because this is an ongoing struggle for an individual that might have a deeper root causes, that's certainly been something as deacons, we're very quick to remember we don't want to give some support to stop the bleeding. We really do want to help households, particularly heads of households, develop into healthy, godly, strong leaders in order to keep future financial shocks at bay. But that's one example I can think of.

Nathan Trice 30:04

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that we have both success and failure stories. And that may be reassuring to deacons listening. I think of a fail in a situation many, many moons ago. There was financial crisis, there was profound credit card debt, there was quitting of a job in order to take an unwise initiative towards a a certain kind of business that was questionable. And there was bankruptcy, and it's all just this big, big mess. And it started diaconal. How can the deacons help make monthly mortgage payments or what have you? And then it very quickly shifted. Everyone involved, deacons, shepherding elders, and so shifted to this is fundamentally a pastoral issue. This needs to be addressed by elders who can point out certain patterns of sin or or just folly. And that wasn't well received, and that was not a a success. And I just you point to that as just a reassurance that faithful ministry can sometimes result in that kind of outcome, and it's discouraging, but ministry can still be faithful. When I think about something more successful, I think about individuals or households in the congregation that over even many years struggle financially because they struggle with personal discipline, they struggle with good decision making and so on. But deacons in particular strap in and give counsel, and over time that counsel is received. And they're long-standing diaconal ministries, but there's growth and there's endearment between members and deacons and elders, and it becomes a testimony to a kind of holistic ministry we've been talking about. Uh a lot of situations that are specific come to mind. Those are not the most sensational, but those are some of the most rewarding of all kinds of diaconal ministry, it seems to

How Deacons Can Lead Humbly

Nathan Trice 32:27

me.

Chris Cashen 32:27

Well, brothers, we're getting close to the end. I'm wondering if there we've touched on a lot of different things uh, and um I'm wondering if there's anything further you'd like to add that might be of help to our deacons as they consider the cooperation with the session, the interaction with the elders. Anything else that you would like to add?

Jeff Roach 32:48

Well, the culture of cooperation is something that needs to be promoted continuously. There may be seasons where it's maybe more obvious and then seasons where it just needs to be focused on. So it should be uh I think in the forefront of deacons' minds that we are here to serve and to free up the members of session to do what they're called to do, and a mindset of that cooperation needs to be continually uh put forth. So that's my addition here at the end. But it was great to discuss these items with you, Chris and Nat.

Nathan Trice 33:29

Yeah, and I think my heart is going out to the deacon who's listening to this podcast, is aware, perhaps in a new way, we need greater cooperation between elders and deacons in my local church, and is also thinking right about now, yeah, but it takes two to tango, as they say. Uh so how can I uh humbly and respectfully facilitate that cooperation? That's a fair question, poignant one to me. And I'll just say to my deacon brothers, where you see a need in this area in your local church, you certainly can go to the pastor of the church and say, this is my sense of it. And I listened recently to a podcast, and I'd like to know your thoughts on whether we could grow in this area. I think that's a humble and and helpful way uh to take initiative on this area. Uh there's some practical things this the deacons could begin doing uh that would be only, I would assume, well received by the elders. Uh send minutes of the deacon meetings to the elders. You didn't ask for this, brothers, but we want you to know what we're doing. Um the deacons could take the initiative to ask the elders for their input uh in their hard cases. Uh that's a way of bringing the the two uh governing bodies together, if you will. Uh and I think uh deacons can eventually, after making some of those kinds of initiatives, they can make proposals to the elders. It's the elders' decision, always, at the end of the day, uh on all the matters of the church. Uh but deacon brothers love and esteem your elders, seek to be indispensable to them, in no way in competition with them for ministry. And as you're humble and earnest in seeking greater cooperation, I think that will be a great catalyst for good change in your church. And I'm very hopeful for it.

Chris Cashen 35:35

Very good. Well, thank you, Nathan and Jeff, for taking the time to help us walk through this really important topic and probably little thought-of topic of session diaconate culture of cooperation. It's been very helpful to me and deacons. We hope that this episode was helpful to you and will certainly be an encouragement to you and your labors for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Resources And Closing

David Nakhla 36:00

Thanks so much for joining us. Special word of thanks to our producer, Trish Dugan, who works faithfully behind the scenes to bring this podcast to you. Be sure to visit our website, thereformdeacon.org, where you'll find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And we hope you'll join us again soon for another episode of the Reform Deacon Podcast.